Player Kills vs Gun Control & Deathmatching

[Clown_Taxi]

Hello everyone, Clown_Taxi here!

What I'll provide in detail under here have already been discussed to an extend in a couple of @SCANDALOUZ's topics and we've exchanged some opinions with @Tungsten within their comments. Thanks for their interest in trying to provide healthy solutions to the LSRP-V community!

What I would like to explain & explore more under this topic is how a change in how we implement PKs could be a solution towards the ongoing PF license abuse and constant deathmatching problem.

My hypothesis is that both of these problems continuously brew to be a constant problem, because PKs itself act as a clean slate against any of the risky/no-value-for-life/heavily-criminal-chargable actions.

Currently, in an example case, when a character gets killed in a PD shootout:
 

1. They're treated as a shot-and-dead body.
2. All of the illegal items they were carrying gets erased from their inventory.
3. Their memory is voided.

 

These three outcomes have their respectable reasons to be as it is. However, crucial negatives they also provide is as follows:
 

1. PDs RP is limited to "Damn, it is what it is." and acting out as the procedures of the corpse being taken out is proceeding. (basically /respawnme)
2. Once a /respawnme is used, there isn't a single lead for the PD itself left to trace back the carried items to its illegal origins, whether it's a wrongly used licensed gun, a black market gun or drugs.
3. Killed player itself has no memory of the event leading to his/her death, again, leaving with no lead to provide to PD as evidence.

 

I know that how we currently implement PKs basically acts as a justification for the deadliness of a shootout, a loss-in-progression for player and a foundation for the Revenge Kill rule itself. PD treats the body as a corpse, because taking shotgun slugs to your brain is pretty deadly. Items are lost, because well, you lost in that scenario. Memory is erased, so your character and the killer won't be RP'ing a "I killed you, you killed me." till the end of the time.

However, the underlying problem here is that PKs represent death with no consequences. Within the overabundance of black market guns in the game right now, I don't feel that losing a couple of illegals from your inventory is an actual, mattering consequence.

And I tell you this, I think that highly-suggested forced-CK is a bad solution too. RP rules-wise, it might be the most plausible idea out there. You don't value your life as a character, well, the game won't value your character's life either. However, forced-CKs lead to a more OOC-kind problem, where you incentivize people more into leaving the server. People don't like losing their progression and potentially having to pay 5$ of fee to keep that progression. I know that a lot of you players are in the "quality over quantity" mindset here, where you directly support the server's cleaning of bad apples. But, please keep in mind that each and every player is an addition to that player count that people value in high regard. Even if server hits just 90 on a peak night, people already start complaining about the low count. You might think that a small community with quality people is always the best solution, but after you see 50 players max in peak hours for a week straight, struggling to find people to RP with in the game, you'll start thinking about leaving the server too.

The recent price-upping for the guns in the game might seem as a temporary fix to this solution, where people would refrain from getting into risky situations, because they would lose more-in-value now. However, another probable effect is that, that would also push people into more play-2-win mentality, where they will more likely jump into GTA Online shootout tactics and push the limits of OOC refund request.

I would like to put my basic suggestion here once more, this time, in a more condensed matter:
 

• PKs should be treated as a "brutally wounded" state, rather than "((THIS PLAYER IS DEAD))".
• When you use /respawnme, if you were carrying any illegal items, you would automatically spawn in prison with a sentence based on what you were carrying at that time.
• Before you use /respawnme, if any PD character was included within the RP of your shootout, they can come up to your "brutally wounded" character and use a command like /addsentence [ID] [CHARGE] to add additional minutes/hours of the prison sentence you will receive after spawning in prison.

This time, I don't want to include a potential hospital RP accompanying this to keep things more direct to the point. In this version, it's already adequate in my opinion.

In this scenario, IC-wise, this means that when you use /respawnme, it means that PD was called on your "brutally wounded" character, EMS personnel carried you out, you received your treatment and taken away by PD to your cell. We gotta assume that LS has the state of art health technology to get you back up on your feet and to be honest, I don't have any problems to put aside the realism a bit to provide a cure to the ongoing no-value-for-life shootings. Current PK implementation itself puts more weight on unrealistic acts and consequences already.

Better than an admin jail, this would punish players in an IC way, also providing the prison RP itself with more players to attend to. Rather than OOCly punishing players for bad behaviour, in a sense, rehabilitate them into more RP.

Also this way, PD would also have actual criminal record of this individual on what they were carrying at the time of their "brutally wounded" state, following the leads of found items and potentially running an IC-investigation on where the source of these illegals might be. Of course, assuming that what items were detained from them when they've spawned in prison can be logged script-wise.

I'm open to any kind of criticism and suggestions you have on this. I don't see this solution super-heavy script-wise from my perspective but I might still be mistaken on this point and other stuff too.

Hope you're having a blast RP'ing in LSRP-V and have a great day!

Edited August 11, 2023 by Clown_Taxi

[Tungsten]

I could only get behind a system like this if it were coupled with the ability to Apply to CK someone if there is extremely good reasons. Otherwise, it goes back and forth forever with PKs, and the problem gets worse. If there is also a complementary application system to apply to CK someone and get admin/faction staff approval, then there is some means to "escape hatch" from a back and forth rivalry and for one party to ultimately "win" that fight.

[Nyla P]

U want us to die and spawn in the empty, drab prison block?

is this your version of HELL

[Clown_Taxi]

On 8/11/2023 at 8:31 PM, Nyla P said:

U want us to die and spawn in the empty, drab prison block?

is this your version of HELL

If you were carrying illegals at the time of your death? Yeah.

I would say it's a much better and reasonable outcome than spawning at your safe & sound home/base after going into a shootout fiesta against 7 PD officers, guns blazing with your UZI.

And the team is already switching things around the prison RP in general. I agree that the current state of being jailed is not super exciting but as things move forward, it won't represent a empty, drab prison block after all.

[authentic lifestyle]

no.

[SCANDALOUZ]

@ImperiumXVII has long ago promised more scriptwise consequences to dying. Like medical bills.

The North remembers.

[ImperiumXVII]

2 hours ago, SCANDALOUZ said:

@ImperiumXVII has long ago promised more scriptwise consequences to dying. Like medical bills.

The North remembers.

 

feature previews!!!

 

 

 

 

 

in all seriousness the system is done, but the loans need reworking to support it before it can be released

 

[Zagros]

I agree with what you're saying; there are no real consequences. We've observed criminals escaping prison time easy. Even when they're severely injured, all they need to do is type "/me reaches for the gun," and they'll be executed by the PD/SD. We're all familiar with the reasons behind this.

 

Let me highlight a few scenarios from SAMP LS:RP that I believe were implemented during shootouts:

If a player with a PF license is shot during a confrontation with PD/SD, their license will be revoked. To be frank, I don't know how it works today, but I believe there are no real consequences.
Players couldn't use the /respawnme command until the PD/SD gave the green light. This allowed for roleplaying around the deceased character(s).
In certain situations, the PD/SD might instruct their players involved in the shootout to survive, if the gunshot wounds weren't fatal. An administrator could enforce this if necessary. Consequently, these players would face in-character consequences, such as imprisonment.

 

However, we currently need to hold back on implementing in-character consequences until the player base increases. At the moment, introducing these sanctions wouldn't be logical. Prisons needs to be picked up as the first thing.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Zagros

[Sparkles]

 

37 minutes ago, Zagros said:

Players couldn't use the /respawnme command until the PD/SD gave the green light. This allowed for roleplaying around the deceased character(s).
In certain situations, the PD/SD might instruct their players involved in the shootout to survive, if the gunshot wounds weren't fatal. An administrator could enforce this if necessary. Consequently, these players would face in-character consequences, such as imprisonment.

 

However, we currently need to hold back on implementing in-character consequences until the player base increases. At the moment, introducing these sanctions wouldn't be logical. Prisons needs to be picked up as the first thing.

For both of these, it should be for all involved, not just shootouts with PD/SD. Or, alternatively to the first, make dead bodies or a corpse stay in place until something is done about them. 

As for shootouts - it shouldn't be up to PD/SD to decide if someone can RP dying or has to live. 

[Tudounaozi]

LET,

PEOPLE,

HAVE,

FUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!

[Kenado]

I say we leave PKs as they are. I'd like to bring to the table is the idea of making PF and CCW weapons more challenging to obtain. Rather than most of the players acquiring them, implementing stricter requirements or a more intricate process could add depth to the RP.

[ScubaStef]

3 hours ago, Kenado said:

I say we leave PKs as they are. I'd like to bring to the table is the idea of making PF and CCW weapons more challenging to obtain. Rather than most of the players acquiring them, implementing stricter requirements or a more intricate process could add depth to the RP.

Realistically there’s no such thing as a “license to purchase a firearm”. As long as you have no criminal background, you can purchase a firearm. To be able to carry a concealed firearm though, you would need to go through some form of training in a classroom and firing range. I think the stipulations on LSRP for legal firearms come from the different forms of abuse people have done in the past, like selling legal guns, stockpiling guns, etc. 

[trashstar]

what if u ban the rule breakers instead of adding more ways to financially bankrupt normal players?? its like u guys are completely inept at learning from ur past mistakes lol

 

people are dming because they dont care for the server, no other reason. if they break rules then dont allow them to purchase pf firearms or even equop one its pretty simple yet ur solution was to start charging people 600 dollars whenever they die its unreal

 

listen to the players who left your server because it sucked not the 1 gimp who stayed around 

Edited October 4, 2023 by trashstar

[Tungsten]

On 10/4/2023 at 7:09 AM, ScubaStef said:

Realistically there’s no such thing as a “license to purchase a firearm”. As long as you have no criminal background, you can purchase a firearm. To be able to carry a concealed firearm though, you would need to go through some form of training in a classroom and firing range. I think the stipulations on LSRP for legal firearms come from the different forms of abuse people have done in the past, like selling legal guns, stockpiling guns, etc. 

 

false

 

in California, one must first obtain a Firearm Safety Certificate in order to purchase a firearm. this requires doing a class.

 

in Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New Jersey, New York, and Illinois one must obtain a permit to purchase. These are issued on a "may issue" basis ever since Bruen. Each of these states also has a list of permissible firearms ("MA Compliant", "CT Compliant", etc.). These three won't issue such a permit without a safety certificate which requires going to a state-certified instructor. In New York, the permit is only for residents and does not apply to NYC which has their own special permitting system.

[SCANDALOUZ]

I want to partially disagree with people who are opposed against gun control and set in stone systems that are meant to discourage stupid stuff like deathmatching.

The thing about system design is that it must come with a train of thought the likes of "what kind of behavior does this system promote/incentivise? what is the META for this system" - therefore you need to design systems that directly have their way of usage promote roleplay and discourage stupid stuff. In the sense of guns for example - making weapons harder to obtain and more meaningful to lose will directly influence how guns are used and treated, and subsequently decrease their stupid misusage and deathmatching. Obviously people will be more wary, since they know it won't be so easy to just get another gun and do it again.

To really drive the point across - drunk driving is illegal, but it seems like some players are advocating for it to be allowed. "I have drunk driven just fine and I have never ran over a happy family of four people. Don't punish me, punish the people who drunk drive and actually run people over, not all the drunk drivers". It doesn't work that way. For society to function, it needs to move as fast as its slowest person.

 

That being said, I agree that rule breakers need to be punished more actively as opposed to things being designed in the EXTREME to discourage them.

Edited October 6, 2023 by SCANDALOUZ