Tungsten

The idea of being restricted into a hospital sounds a bit like prison, though it doesn't exactly align with how things happen in real life. A few caveats: 1. In the US, you can leave a hospital at any time unless you're under arrest (in which case they usually handcuff or restrain you to the bed) 2. What if nobody else is in the hospital? No hospital staff or players? Now it seems like admin jail... lonely. -- A counter-proposal: What about permanent injuries after going into a brutally-wounded state? If you "die" you are actually brutally wounded, and some number of injuries are added to the character that have long-term effects like reducing speed, making it harder to aim, etc. - that way, if you die a lot you are accruing many injuries over time that have detrimental effects on the character. The only way to remove these long-term ailments might be to receive several treatments (one per day, for a certain number of days) from a doctor at the hospital. Respawning at the hospital is fine, but in my view it's pointless unless it's coupled with an incentive to actually undergo long-term treatment. Otherwise, you get situations where Tyrone is in the hospital recovering then within 2 hours of being released he's in another shootout. With injuries he would be severely limited in his ability to participate in a shootout until he receives hospital treatment for a few days. Example: 1. Tyrone gets shot in a gunfight, he gets hit with a few 9mm rounds. 2. He goes into "brutally wounded" state. 3. When he respawns, he is in the hospital - still "wounded" but not brutally wounded. 4. If he has outstanding charges, he instead respawns in the prison hospital with charges automatically applied. 5. If he leaves the hospital immediately, he will have a bunch of impediments - shaky screen, hard to aim, slower run speed, etc. 6. He must receive 3 "treatments" to remove these impediments. Doctors can do /operation on him once every 12 hours. This incentivizes him to get medical treatment. - This number of treatments would also increase with different injuries, higher calibers, etc. so that the recovery process is much more. It would also stack, so if you haven't completed treatments but are shot again you will have those disabilities and treatments added on. This is an incentive to stay out of conflict while recovering. - For example, getting hit by a bunch of 5.56x45 might mean 10 treatments required (10 days minimum to recovery fully), while a 9mm might mean only 2-3 treatments required. - Maybe drugs like morphine, etc. can be used as a way to "temporarily remove" the disability effects, at the cost of negative effects long-term. @Clown_Taxi suggested something very similar with respect to death being brutal wounding instead, and charges leading to automatic imprisonment. Admittedly i'm being convinced.

a few criticisms: 1. this would be nearly impossible to script. what does it mean for a death to be witnessed? if i am 1000 feet away, AFK in an alleyway, does the script see this as a witness in the area? or are we hoping to solve this with ray tracing lines of sight? 2. respawning in prison sounds like a decent idea, but what if it's a headshot. if i get hit 11 times in the head by 5.56x45mm rounds or peppered with 12G buck shot, it's over man... nobody can survive that. should people be "forced" to roleplay the permanent disabilities associated with getting absolutely decimated by such high-powered ammunition? what if i continue to get messed up in shootings, is it more realistic that my body would just give in or that i survived for the 5th time and was rebuilt like the six million dollar man? idk this is full of flaws in logic that run completely antithetical to hardcore roleplay, because it relies on making assumptions that could never occur in the real world. creates more problems than it solves.

The better question here is why are those people allowed to continue on the server. I, for one, would rather have fewer players of a higher quality than a ton of players but only half or less can roleplay to a high quality. By setting out a philosophy of the server, and enforcing that rigidly, you encourage high quality roleplayers to join or stay with the community because they will be near-guaranteed to have a high quality experience. In my view, CKs accomplish this because they impose a high penalty on acting like a moron. If you lose your character every time, you would have to get a namechange which is an OOC tax on stupidity. Alternatively, the server could go the route if giving one free Namechange a month to players who don't have one (meaning only if you have 0 NCs or Credits) so that players who can't afford a NC can do it once per month for free - if they do the same behaviors constantly they'd still have to purchase one or they'd simply not have that character slot for a while.

I’m not against beef kills, but I think a few things should be added here: 1. if someone has truly legitimate beef (beyond a dirty look or insult), people should be allowed to privately apply in advance for CK perms. this can make wars WAY more interesting, since gangs can actually get wiped out this way by attrition. 2. First degree murder should be punishable IC by 900 minutes automatic, the equivalent of 25 years. 3 murders = life sentence. Make murder matter more.

This is fallacious reasoning, attempting to use the way it is to justify the way it should be. It is mind-boggling to me that enforced perma-deaths are a non-starter on a server once known widely as the pinnacle of GTA Roleplaying. I suspect this mindset comes from the same place as the behaviors we're all lambasting here - "game mentality". If we don't enforce CKs, we give the everyday criminal an easy "get out of jail free card" - shoot at the cops. It completely messes up the balance, and makes it so people translate use their OOC motivation (not wanting to spend 900 minutes in prison) into IC motivation for a character to commit suicide-by-cop. It's absurd, and leads to ever-deteriorating roleplay standards. By enforcing CKs, you make a character death meaningful and you get several results: People will surrender to the police more, because they don't want their character to be perma-death'd. Especially with SWAT... no sane person would shoot back at SWAT unless they had a death-wish. When a character does decide to die "in a hail of gunfire", it will be a major event that other characters will "remember" if they saw it. Funerals for characters who get perma-death'd = large-scale roleplay event, can also affect other characters' "emotions". If we want LS-RP to return to a status as "King" of the GTA roleplay scene, this is the only way. This can be solved by doing 1 free namechange per month (if the account has 0 namechanges). It would be low-risk for abuse, because if Mr. Gangbotter dies by the police he cannot make the a new gangbot clone until the next month.

What do you think the punishment should be? IC or OOC? In my view, a character kill is a fair punishment that keeps the whole thing IC and duly values the time dedicated by cops and Judges. OOC punishments like admin jails do little to teach anything to a sub-par roleplayer - more often they just escalate into bans where the only way to get unbanned is to grovel and beg.

I, for one, think our AI overlords are onto something here. More seriously, it feels like there are two communities embedded here and forced to “play nice” despite the irreconcilable differences. Historically when presented with a divide between hardcore roleplayers and sub-par roleplayers, the administrative answer has been to lower the standards and accommodate others. I submit that this is precisely the mindset that got the community to this point. LS-RP used to be the premier roleplaying experience that the whole SAMP community would flock to if they wanted balls deep serious roleplay. Over the years, it has fallen from that status into the likes of a glorified cops and robbers. But how do we fix this? —- Create a NVFL (No Value for Life) rule: In essence, this rule would capture any conduct in which the player demonstrates an unrealistic portrayal where their character clearly doesn’t value living. This will combat the “respawn” mentality by requiring players to roleplay as if their characters fear dying. A few exceptions might be if a character is bona fide suicidal, or is facing a life sentence and would rather die than go back to prison. The “punishment” for this rule should be a warning, admin jail, or ban if it doesn’t result in death. Or, if it results in their character dying, it should result in a character kill - particularly if the action is motivated by an OOC desire to avoid a lengthy prison sentence. There is a toxic mindset within the illegal RP community: “why would I roleplay 900 minutes in jail when I can just shoot back and get 0 minutes?” — shooting back when clearly outnumbered should result in a CK. A character doing something crazy and dying or getting life in prison should be a memorable act. Yet, as a Judge, I feel like I see the same 4 or 5 names on warrants multiple times per week… and they always end in “Suspect killed by PD/SD” or “Suspect killed by SWAT during warrant execution”. By shooting back, the whole consequence is avoided and a whole bunch of peoples time has been wasted… it takes PD/SD 10-15 minutes to apply for a warrant, it takes me 30 minutes to review the legality of said warrant, but it takes 60 seconds for a repeat shootout addict to shoot at a SWAT team and respawn. We need realistic consequences if we want to curate high quality roleplay. — “But Tungsten, what about people who can’t afford name changes?!?” 1. Everyone gets 1 free NC per month if they have none. 2. Allow freezing/thawing of characters. — Without rules, we are but savages. And if one half of society is obeying the rules (of roleplay) while the other is lawless then those who follow the rules are nothing but fodder to be abused by those who don’t care.

care you elaborate on why you believe this?

yes (i have no idea)

Last I heard from @Kotwica we are going to do some form of Probable Cause / Magistrate Hearings to evaluate whether PC exists for a citation. TBH this can only be most effective if the "Arrest Report" system is also used for traffic citations to add "notes" to a citation.

because the process of printing the ticket requires inputting data into the computer, and that is where dashcam footage would be referenced so it can be pulled physically from evidence.com this is the most likely/realistic model. we need to be able to do traffic court asynchronously, or it won't happen at all.

most well-developed character of 2023

In the past, i've found that roleplaying some kind of religious background gives my characters depth, because it gives a sort of moral center to the character and governs how they might think. Ordinarily, i've found that free-form thought gives rise to our own thoughts as a player influencing what the character should do - however, when a character has very strong religious convictions (perhaps even different from our own in real life), it forces us to think from a different lens and consider what a deeply religious character might do. Consider the following situations made more complex by the element of the character's religious background: Tyrese is a member of the local street gang, but he was also raised in the faith. He is called by the gang to commit a murder, and struggles deeply with that choice because he doesn't want to go to Hell. However, his desire for acceptance into the gang overcomes his desire for admittance into Heaven and he decides to commit the murder. After the murder, he finds that he is extremely guilty for his decision and his life isn't going as he had planned. He seeks the advice of a priest, who tells him he must atone for his sin by turning himself in. He confesses to the murder and serves his time, reforming himself in the process, and becomes a productive member of society upon his release. Abram is a businessman and also a member of the Nation of Islam. He regularly invests in local businesses, however due to his beliefs, refuses to invest in any business owned by a Jewish person. He holds hateful, antisemitic beliefs and such beliefs influence his business decisions. However, this practice ends up losing him the most lucrative deal of his life and he is forced to confront his beliefs and examine whether they are true to his values. Paul is a police officer on the south side of Los Santos, and says a prayer every day in the patrol room. He regularly prays to Saint Michael, the patron saint of police officers, and even discusses the Bible with his fellow officers and some deputies. His faith is challenged, however, when on patrol he discovers what he perceives as pure evil - a child trafficking operation. This causes him to question his faith and wonder whether God truly protects the innocent. He becomes depressed, which affects his focus on the job and makes him wonder if being an Officer is the right career path for him. Tony is an Italian-American who was raised Catholic in a heavily Italian neighborhood. As he grows up, he gets closer to the members of a local LCN organization and becomes an Associate. Eventually, he is offered the chance to become a member of the organization. However, he must burn a picture of his patron-saint to do so and therein signify his total commitment to the family. He struggles with whether or not he can do this, since he doesn't want to go to Hell. But, in the process of considering this, he resolves that soldiers don't go to hell so he wouldn't either. He willingly enters into the arrangement and burns the picture of his patron-saint, becoming a "made man". -- In the past, there have been characters who explicitly add this element to the server. Notably, Jebediah Clarkson (whyapac) played as a priest for a while and hosted weddings, funerals, etc. which I believe added a lot of depth to many characters. When I used to attend these kind of events, it was not uncommon to see even the hardest gangsters there. Has anyone else roleplayed their characters with some element of religion incorporated? How can religion be an important part of character development?

Perhaps the way to solve the problem of habitual addicts to shooting would be an OOC method for admins to "ban" a person from having a gun. This way they can be encouraged to explore other methods of roleplay that don't involve guns. Something like -- person tries to buy a gun on the street -- tries to pick it up -- error message shows up: (( You are currently under an OOC weapons restriction and cannot pick up this weapon. )) To this point, sometimes the best way to train someone in a preferred method is Negative Conditioning. If players figure out that drawing down on cops when surrounded leads to losing their character, they might do it once or twice before they eventually rethink how they approach the situation. People will bitch and moan for a while until they figure out how things work and roleplay will improve.

PC 029(c) states: "A judge may order the indefinite seizure of any vehicle used in the commission of the crime when it has been demonstrated that an individual is unlikely to cease committing the offense in the future and such vehicle was used in the commission of the crime." Seizure of a vehicle does not warrant that the state can then put it to auction, since no provision of law states that the State becomes the new owner. When a vehicle is seized, it remains the property of the original owner but is in the possession of law enforcement. City Council would need to pass an ordinance to this effect in order to authorize the auction of a vehicle.

Answering with what I think most criminal roleplayers nowadays would answer: 1. because kills = fun 2. because evading = fun 3. because kills = fun 4. because illegal = chance of conflict = kills = fun -- As stated in @SCANDALOUZ's thread in various different ways, people have departed from the realm of realistic roleplay and storytelling. Instead, this mindset of "Well I want to log on for 2 hours and just have fun" has infected the player base like a zombie virus. So, with that in mind... How can we fix it? Institute a rule called No Value for Life (NVFL) where if a player does things on their character that, if taken completely IC, would tend to result in the death or serious injury of their character almost certainly, then there ought to be a Forced CK in such a scenario. This means if you shoot at a cop when you are clearly outnumbered, that should be the first and last time the character ever does it... a Forced CK serves as an inflection point that makes shooting at the cops a big event not just an everyday occurrence. It gives people a reason to throw down their gun, or to put their hands up, instead of shooting back at the cops simply to escape accountability. Alternatively, this could be included as part of the Powergaming rule as unrealistic conduct. No real-life criminal, unless they're suicidal or plain crazy, would turn and shoot at a group of police simply to avoid prison. Prison is always preferable to death in real life, except maybe for people facing three-strikes life sentences. Who can fix it? Administration, if they create a new rule that covers the above Is it a proper reason to shoot at a cop over driving without a license & carrying an unlicensed firearm? (Both misdemeanors, about 40 mins in jail). No. This is poor roleplay and demonstrates no value for life. Is it fine if a cop rushes into a gang neighborhood and tries to arrest a single suspect? If not, why is it proper for someone to risk dying over a misdemeanor arrest? No, a cop should have multiple backup units for this purpose or otherwise not do it.

On the issue of driving, this can be handled from an IC perspective by lobbying the City Council (once it's formed?) to create stricter laws. If the City Council enables the courts to do something we (judges) can issue harsher penalties like permanent license suspension, vehicle seizure, etc. What I will recommend is this: If you want to get authorization to seize a vehicle, you need only apply for a warrant and articulate Probable Cause that the vehicle is being used for the commission of a felony (Evasion is a felony). If a vehicle is constantly being used for felony purposes, there is a strong case as to why it should be seized as evidence and prosecuted by the District Attorney. Instrumentalities of crime are seldom released once they are taken as evidence of a crime, especially following a conviction. Do with this advice what you will.

Find a lawyer and sue them, that's why we have courts. Suspicion and reasonable suspicion are two very different things.

You already have to write arrest records when you jail someone. What if this same "Narrative" box in-game was required to issue a citation, and those notes followed the citation no matter what? The purpose of doing such a "record" would be so that you don't have to show up to the court hearing, but the issued party also gets a chance to appeal it. In fact, you would be more likely to be summoned to court if no such record exists. It's not just a matter of you not showing up - that would mean the ticket gets dismissed by default. A citation record can be something as simple as: With such a narrative, we are bound by both server rules and the Penal Code to give "full weight" to officer testimony. If the system was completely in-game and streamlined, would it be less of an issue for you to participate?

One problem we have run into when planning out Traffic Court is how to get the officer's narrative. Typically in real traffic court, if the officer doesn't show up the ticket is dismissed - but for game purposes, this isn't exactly fair since many officers/deputies won't be able to show up depending on timezones. Do you have any suggestions on how we might fix that part? If we can figure that out, I can definitely see a future for Traffic hearings on a scheduled basis.

We are exploring options on how to bring more court functions in-game because you are 100% correct... it takes far too long to resolve a simple case.

This is fallacious reasoning. The proper solution would be to find more admins/testers/cops from that particular timezone, not to discount any kind of suggestion to improve the quality of roleplay by introducing enhanced consequences. If DM or "trigger happiness" is happening, the answer is to fix that problem and not affirm that it therefore must exist.

Work in Progress - stay tuned. It has always been a dream of mine to do trials for detective casefiles... so the detectives gather the evidence, and then the case would get argued in court to determine guilt or innocence and determine the sentences of the faction members who have been charged. This also gives that faction the chance in-game trials, assassinating the prosecutor/judge, maybe even tampering with the jury? The possibilities are endless... This is a glorious idea, however I don't believe we have the faction staff to be running two separate facilities. A prison would probably make the most sense, since people don't actually submit a pleading at all. There are certain conditions where I think a character should face the death penalty. If your character has been convicted on something like 5 murders, there is no way a California Jury would let you live... just being real. A person who murders 5 people is either criminally insane or a ruthless cold-blooded killer and realistically they'd be headed either to an state hospital or to death row. The Courts can handle this kind of sentencing, but we would need very strict guidelines on what does/doesn't constitute a death sentence. For example, it can't just be a red line of "5 murders you're sentenced to death" - there should be a set of rules that help determine what gets a "life sentence" and what is enough to get a "death sentence". Perhaps the Oz Model: if you commit a certain number of murders you get a life sentence, but if you also commit another murder in prison when you already have a life sentence you get the death penalty? I have no idea, but i'm game for this kind of challenge. As with the case file trials, the roleplay is endless here - in-game trials for death row cases, appeals for death row inmates, and of course the big event of lethal injection for San Andreas' worst criminals.

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I was talking about this on Discord earlier today, and have a slightly different way of handling it. Instead of using a "lives" system, why not deal with it on a case by case basis by creating a set of conditions where a Forced CK is warranted? For example... For criminals: If you are in a police chase and clearly outnumbered 4 to 1, but you decide to shoot at the cops and "go down in a blaze of glory" - this should be an automatic CK if you die during the raid. If you are in a house and a tactical team knocks on the door, but you decide you want to have a shootout in the interior - this should be an automatic CK if you die during the raid. If you are a gang leader and actively engaged in an official war with another faction, the other faction should be allowed to assassinate you anywhere except on your own home turf. For law enforcement: If you do something very unrealistic or unsafe, such as running directly at a person who has an automatic rifle - this should be an automatic CK if you die while doing so. If you are a detective and are exposed by the gang/mafia/organization you are investigating, they should be allowed to Force CK you with approval from FM. This wouldn't require the implementation of a hard number of lives to be tracked on a character level. Instead, it would encourage both sides - cops and criminals - to roleplay realistically under the threat of losing their character permanently if they choose to depart from the realm of reality. "But why should I lose my character I've been working so hard on?" This is the logic of RPG enthusiasts who want to tell exactly the story they want to tell. However, LS:RP isn't always just about telling the story you want to tell - it's about the stories we tell together through our characters. None of us have full control over what happens to our characters - for example, leadership overthrows in illegal factions can result in a gang leader being thrown out of their own faction and even killed! I would advocate for expanding this rule. "But what if i'm in a shootout and the police call backup and then they outnumber me mid-fight?" This is where I would say the rule should be clearly outnumbered. If it's a tactical team, this should scare the pants off any criminal - your options then are jump out the back window, surrender, or fight them... if you choose to fight them you deserve to be CK'ed if you lose that fight. If it's an open shootout in public, then I wouldn't say this should be the rule unless it is very clear you are outnumbered, but this is for the admins to decide... "But I can't afford a name change every time this happens?!" Free name changes should be given to those who are Force CK'ed, because they are losing their character. This is not the same as choosing to switch around what character is played on each slot, because in this case you would actually be losing a character permanently.