Consequences & The Feel of Playing 2 Different Gamemodes at Once

[30PiecesOfSilver]

31 minutes ago, ROZE said:

I think the implementation of an official consequences rule that details how consequences must be roleplayed would help increase player awareness, improve admin intervention and make players think twice, so they don't break any rules 

 

We won't be forcing any CKs, we agreed this internally as we don't want to create situations where people are forced to pay for things

 

Regarding the comment above me, $5 doesn't have the same value everywhere in the world

Well, then to add to this, then give another character slot, force the CK and if they can't afford 5$ then they make a new character, and lose their assets.
Otherwise suicide by cops will continue and all of the dming as well. We're on the edge of having DOC in the game, but it'll be mostly empty since people will
die to avoid prison.

"Like a reset character slot"

Edited August 7, 2023 by 30PiecesOfSilver

[Tungsten]

18 minutes ago, ROZE said:

CKs won't be enforced and never will be

 

We only do it in extremely specific circumstances

 

This is fallacious reasoning, attempting to use the way it is to justify the way it should be. It is mind-boggling to me that enforced perma-deaths are a non-starter on a server once known widely as the pinnacle of GTA Roleplaying. I suspect this mindset comes from the same place as the behaviors we're all lambasting here - "game mentality". If we don't enforce CKs, we give the everyday criminal an easy "get out of jail free card" - shoot at the cops. It completely messes up the balance, and makes it so people translate use their OOC motivation (not wanting to spend 900 minutes in prison) into IC motivation for a character to commit suicide-by-cop. It's absurd, and leads to ever-deteriorating roleplay standards.

 

By enforcing CKs, you make a character death meaningful and you get several results:

• People will surrender to the police more, because they don't want their character to be perma-death'd.
  • Especially with SWAT... no sane person would shoot back at SWAT unless they had a death-wish.
• When a character does decide to die "in a hail of gunfire", it will be a major event that other characters will "remember" if they saw it.
• Funerals for characters who get perma-death'd = large-scale roleplay event, can also affect other characters' "emotions".

If we want LS-RP to return to a status as "King" of the GTA roleplay scene, this is the only way.

 

33 minutes ago, ROZE said:

I think the implementation of an official consequences rule that details how consequences must be roleplayed would help increase player awareness, improve admin intervention and make players think twice, so they don't break any rules 

 

We won't be forcing any CKs, we agreed this internally as we don't want to create situations where people are forced to pay for things

 

Regarding the comment above me, $5 doesn't have the same value everywhere in the world

 

This can be solved by doing 1 free namechange per month (if the account has 0 namechanges). It would be low-risk for abuse, because if Mr. Gangbotter dies by the police he cannot make the a new gangbot clone until the next month.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Tungsten

[30PiecesOfSilver]

1 minute ago, Tungsten said:

 

 

If we want LS-RP to return to a status as "King" of the GTA roleplay scene, this is the only way.

He's 100% right and forced ck's have to be a thing. That's not even a choice at this point, it's a requirement.

[badhbh]

We keep coming back to forced CK's move on, it's not practical. 

 

You have an issue with illegal factions killing eachother, which is the entire point of having ROE and in depth faction war rules. Illegal roleplay is always going to attract those who just want to kill eachother day-in-day out. These people will eventually be punished enough OOCLY by admins because they can't roleplay to save their lives that they get banned and/or their faction locked & archived. The screenshots that have been posted of "Deathmatch Garbage" - Has anyone actually involved or spoken to the Faction Team about them? If your or anyones issue is that a certain faction in particular is shite, speak to the Faction Team (who I'm sure are already more than aware of certain factions). Scandalouz, you're the homie but I don't know why you're insisting on saving LSRP from street gang roleplayers by implementing forced CKs when there's processes in place already for these issues. 

Spoiler

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by badhbh.x

[SCANDALOUZ]

4 minutes ago, badhbh.x said:

We keep coming back to forced CK's move on, it's not practical. 

 

You have an issue with illegal factions killing eachother, which is the entire point of having ROE and in depth faction war rules. Illegal roleplay is always going to attract those who just want to kill eachother day-in-day out. These people will eventually be punished enough OOCLY by admins because they can't roleplay to save their lives. The screenshots that have been posted of "Deathmatch Garbage" - Has anyone actually involved or spoken to the Faction Team about them? If your or anyones issue is that a certain faction in particular is shite, speak to the Faction Team (who I'm sure are already more than aware of certain factions). Scandalouz, you're the homie but I don't know why you're insisting on saving LSRP from street gang roleplayers by implementing forced CKs when there's processes in place already for these issues. 

This is why we should never have allowed women to vote.
(This is a joke, this is a faction member and a friend back off SJW police)

Like I said in the OP bad

"EDIT:

Please note that this isn't about the implementation of forced CKs or anything in particular. This is about coming forward and sharing your two cents and admitting that there is indeed a problem (I believe that there is). I believe that we first need to, collectively and as a community, actually agree that there is indeed a problem. Only when we do that - we can actually sit down and talk about how to combat it.

The point is - don't grasp onto the *specific* systems/policies. Grasp onto whether there is a problem or not to begin with."

Fuuurthermore to what you said:
Reports, faction team, etc, etc.

If all these mechanisms are so good and so working, then the server would not be at the state that it is and all of us wound't be whining about consequences the way that we are right now.

So clearly something ain't working, the system is breaking somewhere, and something else needs to be done/added.
Who's at fault? Idk, could it be everyone? I guess so. This is why we're here to talk about it.

Edit: The point is to design systems that DISCOURAGE  (in a first place) behavior that we would normally need to address/deal with via forum reports and other OOC punishments. For the sake of literally everyone, including the admins that deal with forum drama daily.
 

Edited August 7, 2023 by SCANDALOUZ

[30PiecesOfSilver]

6 minutes ago, badhbh.x said:

We keep coming back to forced CK's move on, it's not practical. 

 

You have an issue with illegal factions killing eachother, which is the entire point of having ROE and in depth faction war rules. Illegal roleplay is always going to attract those who just want to kill eachother day-in-day out. These people will eventually be punished enough OOCLY by admins because they can't roleplay to save their lives that they get banned and/or their faction locked & archived. The screenshots that have been posted of "Deathmatch Garbage" - Has anyone actually involved or spoken to the Faction Team about them? If your or anyones issue is that a certain faction in particular is shite, speak to the Faction Team (who I'm sure are already more than aware of certain factions). Scandalouz, you're the homie but I don't know why you're insisting on saving LSRP from street gang roleplayers by implementing forced CKs when there's processes in place already for these issues. 

Sorry not trying to flame but LOL. Yeah, ROE's and in depth faction war rules might work. But right now server truly is half cops and robbers  deathmatchers

They don't work because it's not wars, but straight murder for so little "beef". I seen people getting into shootouts for basically an insult....

The server's state makes it not that enjoyable, and if your true heavy role-players leaves, then the rest will crumble. Might as well become a dm server or a light rp server, because no forced ck's means light-rp

[Tungsten]

15 minutes ago, 30PiecesOfSilver said:

Sorry not trying to flame but LOL. Yeah, ROE's and in depth faction war rules might work. But right now server truly is half cops and robbers  deathmatchers

They don't work because it's not wars, but straight murder for so little "beef". I seen people getting into shootouts for basically an insult....

The server's state makes it not that enjoyable, and if your true heavy role-players leaves, then the rest will crumble. Might as well become a dm server or a light rp server, because no forced ck's means light-rp

I’m not against beef kills, but I think a few things should be added here:

 

1. if someone has truly legitimate beef (beyond a dirty look or insult), people should be allowed to privately apply in advance for CK perms. this can make wars WAY more interesting, since gangs can actually get wiped out this way by attrition.

 

2. First degree murder should be punishable IC by 900 minutes automatic, the equivalent of 25 years. 3 murders = life sentence. Make murder matter more.

[Gaz]

Trying to play nice between those who see the server as a storytelling platform and those who approach it as an RPG with cops and robbers elements is indeed a challenge. Establishing a clear philosophy for the server, one that encourages proper roleplay and meaningful decision-making, would likely contribute to a more satisfying and consistent experience for all participants.

[ROZE]

I really don't think forced CKs would even fix much, the kinds of people you're talking about don't exactly favour character development, if given a free CK they'd just link back up with their old buddies and do the same thing, if anything I think it would devalue a CK

 

There are other ways to handle this, we just need to figure it out

Edited August 7, 2023 by ROZE

[SCANDALOUZ]

5 minutes ago, ROZE said:

I really don't think forced CKs would even fix much, the kinds of people you're talking about don't exactly favour character development, if given a free CK they'd just link back up with their old buddies and do the same thing, if anything I think it would devalue a CK

 

There are other ways to handle this, we just need to figure it out

This is the kind of tone, reasoning and approach that I can get behind. Admitting there is a problem and figuring out what to do about it, even if not necessarily CKs.
That's the point of the discussion, not CKs.

Because simply saying "there's forum reports we already have a system" and etc isn't enough. It clearly isn't working.

Like I mentioned earlier on, it's about designing systems that automatically discourage stupid behavior and subsequently prevent it from happening in a first place, as opposed to waiting it happen and then having to deal with it over forum reports and etc.

[Gaz]

If someone gets banned and they are insistent enough on playing still, they will.

 

Not to mention banning people all around just hurts player numbers during a crucial stage in the servers life.

[30PiecesOfSilver]

6 minutes ago, Gazura said:

If someone gets banned and they are insistent enough on playing still, they will.

 

Not to mention banning people all around just hurts player numbers during a crucial stage in the servers life.

Quality>Quantity

[Tungsten]

26 minutes ago, ROZE said:

I really don't think forced CKs would even fix much, the kinds of people you're talking about don't exactly favour character development, if given a free CK they'd just link back up with their old buddies and do the same thing, if anything I think it would devalue a CK

 

There are other ways to handle this, we just need to figure it out

 

The better question here is why are those people allowed to continue on the server. I, for one, would rather have fewer players of a higher quality than a ton of players but only half or less can roleplay to a high quality. By setting out a philosophy of the server, and enforcing that rigidly, you encourage high quality roleplayers to join or stay with the community because they will be near-guaranteed to have a high quality experience.

 

In my view, CKs accomplish this because they impose a high penalty on acting like a moron. If you lose your character every time, you would have to get a namechange which is an OOC tax on stupidity. Alternatively, the server could go the route if giving one free Namechange a month to players who don't have one (meaning only if you have 0 NCs or Credits) so that players who can't afford a NC can do it once per month for free - if they do the same behaviors constantly they'd still have to purchase one or they'd simply not have that character slot for a while.

[SCANDALOUZ]

Personal takeaway so far (as result of the ongoing conversation) #1
- The majority of the community agrees that there has to be some form of consequences for actions and stupidity (even if not instant CK) and if I can take the liberty to expand on that, I would word it like this: We need systems and policies in place that automatically discourage stupid behavior and subsequently help prevent it from happening in a first place as opposed to waiting for it to happen and then having to deal with it via forum reports and etc. For the sake of everyone.

Also and to take the topic into a slightly different direction for a moment
We've been yapping about IC consequences, but what about OOC ones and generally becoming more strict and cracking down on stupity.
For example, even some admins admit that sometimes stupid shit going on is obvious, but since they have no means to prove it, they cannot do anything about it, otherwise they would get crucified by another portion of the community.

This is why change has to come from the top floors. Management has to trust, empower and encourage its administration to do their job. For example, tell the faction team to start shutting down bullshit "factions" that seem to contribute nothing but shootouts to the server. And give FT the ability to do so on their own accord and judgement as opposed to having the need of someone writing 30 reports with 3 days of their online time recorded in 4K for anything to happen.


And more off topic for a second
@ROZE deserves flowers for actively participating in this discussion (as a member of the staff) to the best of his ability, despite even being grilled here and there. Major props.

I would /love/ to see other admins and generally staff members to come and share their two cents and personal views both as players/roleplayers as well as admins on the situation as well. But especially as players. Once again, this thread is for management and asking for procedural/policy changes from the top floors. This isn't the community witch-hunting the "blue collar" administration team.

Edited August 7, 2023 by SCANDALOUZ

[livid]

I done told y’all on Discord that CKs aren’t gonna be implemented and that this is literally a waste of time. This has been a discussion for so long and each of these debates ended in the same way; it goes up to an X number of pages, eventually gets heated or doesn’t, admin makes the last comment “We are not going to be forcing CKs on this server, this conversation is over.” and lock the thread. Kudos to everyone still trying though, but you gotta remember this is the way LSRP operates and the way it’ll continue operating.