Consequences & The Feel of Playing 2 Different Gamemodes at Once

[SCANDALOUZ]

Personal takeaway so far (as result of the ongoing conversation) #1
- The majority of the community agrees that there has to be some form of consequences for actions and stupidity (even if not instant CK) and if I can take the liberty to expand on that, I would word it like this: We need systems and policies in place that automatically discourage stupid behavior and subsequently help prevent it from happening in a first place as opposed to waiting for it to happen and then having to deal with it via forum reports and etc. For the sake of everyone.

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IC Actions = IC Consequences has been a topic that has been picking up steam all across the community from a decent while now. You can see it implicated across several general discussion threads as well as all over discord servers. 

Kane has asked me to write him a forum PM on the matter when I started bitching over to him as well. So, I am writing this thread, which I will forum PM to Kane. I'm writing it here and subsequently posting it in public, because I feel like a lot of people have some form of an opinion on this and it would be nice to have a more proper discussion.

Honestly, a /lot/ has been said on the topic. A lot of suggestions, debates and any of that. I've taken the liberty of taking a lot of the shit that I have been personally bitching about all over discord and running it by ChatGPT to just "easily compile" it into a more easier and pleasant to read textwall. Just to avoid me having to re-write a boatload about the same thing over, and over and over again.

With nothing further to do, here are my very generalized and simplified two cents on the matter. I'm willing to expand upon all the topics like I have been all over discord, but I think this should be enough to get a conversation started.

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Our server is designed to prioritize realism and immersive roleplay. We aim to create a sense of development and progression in the game world. For instance, our economy is somewhat hardcore, so owning a 500k car carries significant meaning.

 

However, there is an issue we need to address. While we have well-defined systems in place to reward players for their successes and achievements, we lack mechanisms for meaningful consequences when things go wrong. This creates an imbalance in our RP approach, leaning towards a play-to-win culture, where once you acquire something, you keep it forever, regardless of your actions.

 

To rectify this, I would like to see the implementation of policies that actually bring meaningful consequences to our server and world. One idea is to enforce character kills (CKs) for players engaging in suicidal behavior, such as taking on overwhelming odds against the police. Life sentences, faction shutdowns and asset removal/confiscation are also examples of suggetions aimed for more significant and meaningful consequences.

 

I believe that roleplay etiquette should reflect the principle of Actions = Consequences. Currently, our community seems divided between those who approach the server as a storytelling experience and those who treat it more like a cops and robbers RPG. If we want to incentivize a proper, RP-friendly approach, then that should involve facing the repercussions of one's actions.

 

While I understand the concerns and various viewpoints within the community, we must decide on a cohesive philosophy for the server. We claim (I believe?) to be a heavy RP server, but recent events have shown instances where actions lacked meaningful motives or consequences, leading to disputes between players.

 

To maintain the integrity of the server and ensure a more consistent experience, we need to reconcile these clashing philosophies and choose a clear direction. This process may require making tough decisions, but it's essential to create a balanced and immersive environment for everyone.

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This conversation starter in mind, I'd like to see some of the other vocal people about the matter on discord come in here and expand on to this entire thing and generally leave their two cents as well. This is a better place to have the topic than on messy discord anyway.

TLDR:
We want to eat the cake, but to have it too. This applies to this entire thing and every side involved. Players do, the staff does with the policies implemented (or not) and etc.

EDIT:

Please note that this isn't about the implementation of forced CKs or anything in particular. This is about coming forward and sharing your two cents and admitting that there is indeed a problem (I believe that there is). I believe that we first need to, collectively and as a community, actually agree that there is indeed a problem. Only when we do that - we can actually sit down and talk about how to combat it.

The point is - don't grasp onto the *specific* systems/policies. Grasp onto whether there is a problem or not to begin with.

EDIT 2:

You cannot please everyone, but by doing nothing you're upsetting BOTH/ALL sides. You need to actually decide on a vision for this roleplaying project and go forth with it, so people know what to expect.

EDIT 3:

I want to make this clear that this is NOT a shot at neither the administration, nor a particular section of the community. We all have our different views and takes on things. We all like different things and I'm no one to judge any of you. Not to mention the administration does all this administrating for free. This is just role players discussing roleplaying and things surrounding it as far as I'm concerned. It's all coming from a good place and the desire to have better and better role play in the game server.

For all its worth, I think the administration as a whole has been doing a good job in "listening" to the community, and this is just me trying to be heard on yet another subject.

Edited August 7, 2023 by SCANDALOUZ

[Kenado]

I'd like some type of a more enforced system/regulation towards CK so we won't have 'roleplayers' shooting towards SWAT and laughing because he is roleplaying to be a baddassbitchbossmob.

[Tungsten]

I, for one, think our AI overlords are onto something here.

 

More seriously, it feels like there are two communities embedded here and forced to “play nice” despite the irreconcilable differences. Historically when presented with a divide between hardcore roleplayers and sub-par roleplayers, the administrative answer has been to lower the standards and accommodate others. I submit that this is precisely the mindset that got the community to this point. LS-RP used to be the premier roleplaying experience that the whole SAMP community would flock to if they wanted balls deep serious roleplay. Over the years, it has fallen from that status into the likes of a glorified cops and robbers. But how do we fix this?

 

—-

 

Create a NVFL (No Value for Life) rule:

In essence, this rule would capture any conduct in which the player demonstrates an unrealistic portrayal where their character clearly doesn’t value living. This will combat the “respawn” mentality by requiring players to roleplay as if their characters fear dying. A few exceptions might be if a character is bona fide suicidal, or is facing a life sentence and would rather die than go back to prison. 
 

The “punishment” for this rule should be a warning, admin jail, or ban if it doesn’t result in death. Or, if it results in their character dying, it should result in a character kill - particularly if the action is motivated by an OOC desire to avoid a lengthy prison sentence. There is a toxic mindset within the illegal RP community: “why would I roleplay 900 minutes in jail when I can just shoot back and get 0 minutes?” — shooting back when clearly outnumbered should result in a CK.

 

A character doing something crazy and dying or getting life in prison should be a memorable act. Yet, as a Judge, I feel like I see the same 4 or 5 names on warrants multiple times per week… and they always end in “Suspect killed by PD/SD” or “Suspect killed by SWAT during warrant execution”. By shooting back, the whole consequence is avoided and a whole bunch of peoples time has been wasted… it takes PD/SD 10-15 minutes to apply for a warrant, it takes me 30 minutes to review the legality of said warrant, but it takes 60 seconds for a repeat shootout addict to shoot at a SWAT team and respawn.

 

We need realistic consequences if we want to curate high quality roleplay.

 

—

 

“But Tungsten, what about people who can’t afford name changes?!?”

 

1. Everyone gets 1 free NC per month if they have none.

 

2. Allow freezing/thawing of characters.

 

—

 

Without rules, we are but savages. And if one half of society is obeying the rules (of roleplay) while the other is lawless then those who follow the rules are nothing but fodder to be abused by those who don’t care.

[30PiecesOfSilver]

Hello SCANDALOUZ, even if I hate to say it you are right.

 

First off, honestly the biggest issue when it comes to role-play is the street gangs issue. Street gangs deathmatchers are representing over 80%(aprox) of the forums report and ban appeals. Go check it out for yourself if you don't believe me.  So clearly that's the first thing we need to address.

Why are street gangs an issue (Not every players but a lot of them). Well they're an issue since they have a mentality that winning a shootout means success, somehow. When in reality they should go play on GTA online. The whole point of the server is to create a narrative experience for yourself and the ones around it, may it be in passive or active scenes. You have to understand that legal factions, such as the fire departments are going to get burnt out because of y'alls constant shootouts. It HAS to stop. I don't care if we have to cut half our player base and ban these guys. They're not creating role-play anyways but rather hurting the server more than helping it.
 

They're extremely toxic ooc and post deathmatching videos in their own faction threads... Like bro who cares? It's cool maybe once in a while but anyone can pull up a gun on someone not expecting it. You're not cooler because you kill people every single day.

 

How do you fix it? Harder punishment (I know staff is going easy because of player pop),  yeah we'll lose players but we'll gain quality. It's not like we need those deathmatchers anyways.


I agree 100% with forced ck if you do any suicide by cops. If you put yourself in the shoes of your character would you REALLY want to die instead of prison. Most likely not, go watch situations after pursuits and shootouts in real life. You'll see they surrender most of the time because at the end of the day we're all deep down scared of dying. Forcing ck's would decrease the amount of dumb 1 gangster vs 10 guys shootout dramatically. 

One of the other issues that needs addressing is PF license. Now prices got jacked up to insane amounts where a car is worth 2 pistols.... Not the right approach guys. We need ooc rules that makes sense and are somewhat realistic. First ooc rule, if you are associated criminals organizations that  "Fly the colors" then you cannot apply or own a PF license, and if you lie you get banned and PF license banned. Other ooc rule, no selling of firearms through the PF license program unless APPROVED by administration. Why? Because you get people making characters just to get guns and sell them or give to their friends.


Why only street gangs, you hate them? No I don't but their RP for the most part is really poor, and they shoot people for no reasons....
Some of the street gangs have proper RP and props to them, but right now it's a minority and I don't side with cops or street gangs, I'm literally a meter maid in game...

 

 

"COPS TURF CAMPS DAVIS/RANCHO/STRAWBERRY ALL DAY"

 

You guys are the literal reason why they do, not their fault you create shootouts every 5 mins....

[30PiecesOfSilver]

Oh and opened 2 random street gangs faction thread and yup, bunch of dming stuff



 

 

Not flaming, just being real. I opened 2 RANDOM faction threads and this is what I see.... (On their last page)

 

[30PiecesOfSilver]

26 minutes ago, Tungsten said:

 

 

 

“But Tungsten, what about people who can’t afford name changes?!?”

 

 

 

A name change costs 5 bucks, 5.50USD/5Euros

 

I don't care if you have to pay for it, if you can't afford 5 bucks once in a while to give a minimal support to
a freely hosted server then I don't know what to say.

5 bucks, just don't go to starbuck for a day, ain't no way you can't afford 5$

Edited August 7, 2023 by 30PiecesOfSilver

[ROZE]

I think the implementation of an official consequences rule that details how consequences must be roleplayed would help increase player awareness, improve admin intervention and make players think twice, so they don't break any rules 

 

We won't be forcing any CKs, we agreed this internally as we don't want to create situations where people are forced to pay for things

 

Regarding the comment above me, $5 doesn't have the same value everywhere in the world

Edited August 7, 2023 by ROZE

[SCANDALOUZ]

1 minute ago, ROZE said:

I think the implementation of an official consequences rule that details how consequences must be roleplayed would help increase player awareness, improve admin intervention and make players think twice, so they don't break any rules 

A good way to make consequences be properly roleplayed and for players to think twice being doing stupid shit is actually implementing meaningful consequences.

[Tungsten]

Just now, ROZE said:

I think the implementation of an official consequences rule that details how consequences must be roleplayed would help increase player awareness, improve admin intervention and make players think twice, so they don't break any rules 

 

What do you think the punishment should be? IC or OOC?

 

In my view, a character kill is a fair punishment that keeps the whole thing IC and duly values the time dedicated by cops and Judges. OOC punishments like admin jails do little to teach anything to a sub-par roleplayer - more often they just escalate into bans where the only way to get unbanned is to grovel and beg.

[SCANDALOUZ]

I just want to also add, before someone comes up with the:

"It's just a game, relax and have some fun lol"

Yes, this is a game and a very specific niche genre of gaming that is taking up from my /real/ time.

Furthermore:

Roleplayers have fun in role playing. If your version of having fun is clashing with basic role playing fundamentals - then we have some form of a problem and as I have mentioned in the OP - we need to establish a clear direction on what we want this community to be, so that people can make their own decisions from that point on.

Edited August 7, 2023 by SCANDALOUZ

[ROZE]

11 minutes ago, Tungsten said:

 

What do you think the punishment should be? IC or OOC?

 

In my view, a character kill is a fair punishment that keeps the whole thing IC and duly values the time dedicated by cops and Judges. OOC punishments like admin jails do little to teach anything to a sub-par roleplayer - more often they just escalate into bans where the only way to get unbanned is to grovel and beg.

CKs won't be enforced and never will be

 

We only do it in extremely specific circumstances

[ROZE]

13 minutes ago, SCANDALOUZ said:

A good way to make consequences be properly roleplayed and for players to think twice being doing stupid shit is actually implementing meaningful consequences.

I completely agree that there should be more punishments for dying, personally I'd like to see a financial burden on PK other than just losing items

 

It would also be nice if admins got an alert if someone has died many times in a short period so we can monitor their rp

[SCANDALOUZ]

3 minutes ago, ROZE said:

CKs won't be enforced and never will be

 

Because?
Someone mentioned that one of the main problems with CKs is character slots and name changes costing real life money.

Basically two fundamental problems come when CK's are involved.

1. We either give free namechanges upon forced CK, and essentially the consequence is nil anyway because generic gang banger #1231 becomes generic gang banger #2817381 and is right back at it.

2. We don't, and we end up in a situation where people are forced to pay to play since they are running out of character slots.

To that I said:

"The inability to delete CKed characters and subsequently running out of slots and having to spend IRL cash to name change sounds like a development flaw/shortcoming/oversight that can be fixed and furthermore - the unwillingness to implement more meaningful IC consequences such as character kills and excusing that with said development oversight sounds... Sorry, but unserious. "

EDIT: Half this community memes GTA:W for being a "shit-tier" RP server and even they enforce CKs for stupid shit. So what that make us?

Edited August 7, 2023 by SCANDALOUZ

[RoryR]

The server definitely does not feel like a heavy RP server at times. Randomly being offered guns at the trucking depot, from another trucker, does not scream heavy RP. On the other side, seeing police drive just as badly, if not worse, just to catch someone and 'win' isn't the highest quality either. I can't really speak to the street gang RP because I haven't been involved in it, but it sounds like the quality is just as bad but in the form of constant DM. The people doing these things need to be educated that what they're doing doesn't align with the aims of the server. I don't think anyone should be banned or CKed or anything extreme, just pushed in the right direction.

[SCANDALOUZ]

5 minutes ago, RoryR said:

The server definitely does not feel like a heavy RP server at times. Randomly being offered guns at the trucking depot, from another trucker, does not scream heavy RP. On the other side, seeing police drive just as badly, if not worse, just to catch someone and 'win' isn't the highest quality either. I can't really speak to the street gang RP because I haven't been involved in it, but it sounds like the quality is just as bad but in the form of constant DM. The people doing these things need to be educated that what they're doing doesn't align with the aims of the server. I don't think anyone should be banned or CKed or anything extreme, just pushed in the right direction.

While I appreciate the "noble" and idealistic approach to the situation, we need to be more realistic than that and look at the matter more "historically".

Players will take what they can and what is given to them.

If you make trucking pay 10K a hour, everyone will be trucking.
If you allow criminals to "suicide by cop" in an 1vs20 at the end of a pursuit in order to avoid jail time and a criminal record (more meaningful consequences), and hence just respawn and right go back at it - then they will do that, and they are doing that.

Edit:

Or let me spin it in an idealistic way.

Indeed, we need to push these "bad apples" or whatever in the right direction, and IMO a good way to do that is with policies and systems that DISCOURAGE bad apple behavior in a first place. Beats forum report drama daily, IMO again.

"Don't metagame" and basic shit like that. Is that -really- the bar?

Edited August 7, 2023 by SCANDALOUZ