Improvements to the Justice System, or How to Fix the Unrealistic Levels of Crime

[Tungsten]

So, here we are again...

The topic of Consequences has been approached from nearly every angle. It's time we discuss it from the perspective of realistic solutions. I ask that participants in this thread remain civil, because the staff has locked many such threads after only one vitriolic reply.

 

I'd like to begin with a series of assumptions I am making about the state of how Criminal Justice works with Los Santos Roleplay.

 

1. LSRP used to have a system of "days in prison" for offenses, circa 2011 and earlier. We changed to a system of "minutes in prison" around 2011 or 2012 because many players were spending their time primarily offline. This coincided with the creation of the DOC faction around 2011 or 2012, since Corrections was now a viable means of roleplay.
    
2. Currently, we have a system whereby a person can go to prison on charges and sit there AFK or semi-AFK or use a laying animation in their jail cell bed until they're out. Seldom do people roleplay in Prison, and when they do they do so with no fear of consequences. Going to solitary is no true punishment, because it's just a place where they can AFK with no chance of anyone trying to roleplay with them.
    
3. There is an incredibly unrealistic amount of felony crime happening in Los Santos. It has been quipped by many that such levels of crime would immediately lead to Martial Law, and it's hard to argue with that logic. People murder, rob, and deal drugs and all they really suffer is a type of OOC time-out in the State Prison while they edit the screenshots or video footage from their last gun fight or brawl.
    
4. Rather than face the consequences of prison or jail, many players would simply prefer to turn and shoot at the police - even for minor offenses such as traffic stops. The server administration has permitted this to get out of hand, to the point where it has become status quo.
    
5. The excuse people use constantly is "it's just a game", "I just want to enjoy the 2 hours of free time I have", and so on.

 

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What can be done?

"Without Rules, we are nothing but animals." -Socrates

"There are those men who say to repay evil with kindness. But I say, how then are we to repay kindness? Repay kindness with kindness, but repay evil with justice." -Kong Qiu

 

Only with an understanding that there is a problem with the way criminal justice works on Los Santos Roleplay do we have even a shred of hope in fixing it. I have a four part proposal that I sincerely believe would fix a lot of the problems we are facing.

 

First, change "minutes in prison" to "days in prison". This will incentivize roleplaying in prison because you cannot AFK for multiple days in a row... plus, that's boring. In my view, if you want to roleplay as a criminal that should also mean roleplaying in prison when you are inevitably caught. Of course, the alternative to roleplaying in prison is always be better at crimes and don't get caught. 

 

Second, add pleading to the jailing process. When a person is taken to jail by a law enforcement officer, the jailed player should be given an item in their inventory that states the charges. This is known in real life as the "rap sheet". It would allow the player to carry their sheet with them through the process, and to always know what they are charged with. Additionally, they should be shown the following two forms: (1) a rap sheet; (2) a pleading form. When a person pleads not guilty to at least one charge, they will receive indefinite imprisonment (time does not decrease for the charges they plead not guilty on). Additionally, the District Attorney's Office is notified via Discord that they must file the charges as a court case. If they don't file the charges within a few days, the person can notify the court and be released immediately.

 

Third, add bail to the imprisonment process. If a person pleads not guilty, they will receive indefinite imprisonment until they win their court case. If they have pleaded not guilty to everything, and there are no charges that prevent bail, the person can bail out by paying the fee for the specific charge. In the example (left), the charge of First Degree Murder prevents bail so this person would not be able to bail out. However, most charges other than Rape, Murder, Terrorism, etc. will have a bail amount that is potentially very high. This serves as a "way out" for people who want to go back to their gang life immediately, or who sincerely believe they didn't commit the crime. If the person is found not guilty by the court, they will get this money back.

 

Fourth, add life imprisonment after three convictions for felonies. If a person is a career criminal, they should face life imprisonment. Unless they are convicted of certain "no parole" offenses, they should be able to earn parole at the discretion of the DCR faction. For this, I am not saying if a person is taken to prison once with three felonies -- I am saying three separate times going to prison with felony charges, and either pleading or being found guilty of those felonies. This can be a pivotal moment in the character development of any illegal roleplayer, because it can have major effects on their gang. If the leader or multiple members of a street gang become "three strikes lifers" that  might severely weaken the gang and open them up to attack by a rival.

 

Why does this need to be done?

One common response to these sorts of "ultra-realism" suggestions is "it's just a game", "I only have 2 hours per night to play, I don't want to waste time in prison"...

 

Roleplaying is not just about the stories we want to tell with our characters. Instead, it is sometimes about the stories others tell with our characters or how all of our collective character stories fit into one larger "meta-story" of the whole LS-RP universe.

 

If people are not willing to see their actions all the way through to the end, they shouldn't take those actions. If a person wants to roleplay a criminal, they must roleplay the whole life of crime and not just the parts they want to.  Roleplaying as a criminal means facing that character facing the consequences of crime.

 

Of course, people could still roleplay their characters having no fear and shooting at the cops but that is a separate issue to this one. This suggestion, instead, seeks to solve the problem of unrealistic amounts of crime. The Boyz n the Hood style of roleplay ought to have steep in-character consequences.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Tungsten

[SCANDALOUZ]

I like how a phenomenal suggestion is being low-key ghosted.

I love you, Tungsten.

GTA roleplayers don't want to storytell. They want to have some fun and action then log off.
It's been like this from years. At this point we're beating a dead horse.

[Tens & Twenties]

On 8/24/2023 at 12:08 PM, Tungsten said:

OOC time-out

You are massively understating this.

[Tseard1]

Definitely support this. Current system allows for cops and robbers behavior. 

[Sparkles]

Part one of your suggestion is being worked on already by devs, as is pleading. 

 

Certain charges need more time or the ability to do life in prison, not just 900 minutes. Right now someone can get caught red handed for 4 murders and be out within a few days. 

[CYBER]

I believe this must be discussed with the illegal roleplayers, those people whose gameplay will be affected if this goes through. And unfortunately the majority of the comments come from legal RPers.
 

Legal RPers are often victimized by gang/mafia roleplayers. Being robbed or being the victim of a blind bullet in a bar shootout has become more or less commonplace. I also agree that all of our stories are intertwined, but we are the final storytellers for our characters. And at this point in time, I would argue that if I am the victim of a blind bullet in a bar shooting and the shooter is arrested [with the current system], it has the same consequence for both of us (it may be more drastic for him). I will RP a gun wound or type /respawnme and minutes later act like nothing has happened. He, on the other hand, has to stand there "AFK" and check in every 15 minutes or so to avoid being kicked.

 
I totally agree with you that a prison sentence should not be an OOC punishment/timeout. However, I also agree with the statement that  "it's just a game", "I only have 2 hours per night to play, I don't want to waste time in prison". That being said, with this proposal, even thought it may seem like you are offering a solution to this problem, [Bring more RP to DOJ perhaps], in fact you potentially increase the time of the very "OOC Penalty" you try to prevent.

I just think we shouldn't discourage people from doing illegal RP(Or any type of RP tbh, Be who you want to be, that's the idea of roleplay). Consequences should be much harsher, I agree - but it also shouldn't encourage people to die to police just to avoid arrest. I think these two topics are directly proportional and it'll only lead to more shootings instead of reducing them.

Overall, I think there are legitimate concerns and good points. The idea itself is brilliant, especially the parole system as it opens up doors for probation as well. It's just that, I'm not so sure that the proposed solutions address the problem at hand.
 

Edited August 29, 2023 by _CYBER_

[Cocoon]

22 hours ago, _CYBER_ said:

I believe this must be discussed with the illegal roleplayers, those people whose gameplay will be affected if this goes through. And unfortunately the majority of the comments come from legal RPers.
 

Legal RPers are often victimized by gang/mafia roleplayers. Being robbed or being the victim of a blind bullet in a bar shootout has become more or less commonplace. I also agree that all of our stories are intertwined, but we are the final storytellers for our characters. And at this point in time, I would argue that if I am the victim of a blind bullet in a bar shooting and the shooter is arrested [with the current system], it has the same consequence for both of us (it may be more drastic for him). I will RP a gun wound or type /respawnme and minutes later act like nothing has happened. He, on the other hand, has to stand there "AFK" and check in every 15 minutes or so to avoid being kicked.

 
I totally agree with you that a prison sentence should not be an OOC punishment/timeout. However, I also agree with the statement that  "it's just a game", "I only have 2 hours per night to play, I don't want to waste time in prison". That being said, with this proposal, even thought it may seem like you are offering a solution to this problem, [Bring more RP to DOJ perhaps], in fact you potentially increase the time of the very "OOC Penalty" you try to prevent.

I just think we shouldn't discourage people from doing illegal RP(Or any type of RP tbh, Be who you want to be, that's the idea of roleplay). Consequences should be much harsher, I agree - but it also shouldn't encourage people to die to police just to avoid arrest. I think these two topics are directly proportional and it'll only lead to more shootings instead of reducing them.

Overall, I think there are legitimate concerns and good points. The idea itself is brilliant, especially the parole system as it opens up doors for probation as well. It's just that, I'm not so sure that the proposed solutions address the problem at hand.
 

I agree. I also think that people are more invested into crimes and a DM mentality just because the playerbase is low at the moment. In addition to that, the lack of players highly contributes to making prison RP boring (as prisons themselves are empty) as well as to make us perceive a disproportionate amount of crimes committed per player.

Once the playerbase starts going back up everything will sort itself out automatically. Realistically, 2-3 shootings in an hour per 400-500 players are nothing and is in fact what we used to have back on SAMP. With 50-60 players? It feels too much to handle. Couple that with players who intentionally want to disrupt the server and make accounts just to ruin other people's RP, and you get a good picture of what is actually going on at the moment.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Cocoon

[GiamPy]

I would like to add a small point that having days in prison, instead of hours, makes a bit more realistic the fact that if somebody is being imprisoned for murder, they don't come back straight from the prison after just 6-8 hours (I don't remember the punishment) and be like "Hey, I'm back after making a mass murder just after 8 hours of prison!".

Edited August 30, 2023 by GiamPy

[Consistency]

I can agree with the first change although it will just incentivize PK and suicide by cop more than it already is because most people don't want to spend a long time in jail, not to mention actually roleplaying the process. I don't think  a plead system is going to do anything to counter the amount of crime. Instead it will just complicate the arrest process. I speak from experience and know of others who don't wish to file even more paperwork than already is required. The whole plead thing seems like a carbon copy from another server. It's something to keep an eye on but in my opinion there are other features that need to be prioritized. The excuse of it being "just a game" shouldn't be brushed aside. At the end of the day if you implement 1:1 procedures of the Justice system in real life no one would play. 

[Kotwica]

26 minutes ago, Consistency said:

I can agree with the first change although it will just incentivize PK and suicide by cop more than it already is because most people don't want to spend a long time in jail, not to mention actually roleplaying the process. I don't think  a plead system is going to do anything to counter the amount of crime. Instead it will just complicate the arrest process. I speak from experience and know of others who don't wish to file even more paperwork than already is required. The whole plead thing seems like a carbon copy from another server. It's something to keep an eye on but in my opinion there are other features that need to be prioritized. The excuse of it being "just a game" shouldn't be brushed aside. At the end of the day if you implement 1:1 procedures of the Justice system in real life no one would play. 

The pleading form would be an item given to the prisoner who clicks buttons that then alerts the DAO.

As for the “more paperwork” for cops excuse, that’s what police officers do. It is part of the discretion of arresting someone if you want to sit there and type out the report both irl and ig. It’s not supposed to be a command and back on the road, if that’s what it was supposed to be, this would be no more than a cops and robbers server. The judiciary is here to stay and it will require more documentation so criminals have a fighting chance against a single determination to put them behind bars.

[Tseard1]

1 hour ago, Consistency said:

I can agree with the first change although it will just incentivize PK and suicide by cop more than it already is because most people don't want to spend a long time in jail, not to mention actually roleplaying the process. I don't think  a plead system is going to do anything to counter the amount of crime. Instead it will just complicate the arrest process. I speak from experience and know of others who don't wish to file even more paperwork than already is required. The whole plead thing seems like a carbon copy from another server. It's something to keep an eye on but in my opinion there are other features that need to be prioritized. The excuse of it being "just a game" shouldn't be brushed aside. At the end of the day if you implement 1:1 procedures of the Justice system in real life no one would play. 

 

Honestly surprised by this comment. I was under the impression this is a heavy roleplay server but you say the most simplest and minor procedure is already too much for police officers to handle? 

 

You do realize that giving a plea is how it works in the big world, right? The current justice system is not even 1% of what happens in-real life. You see someone commit a crime, you arrest him, sentence him yourself and move on to the new one. If I join any other cop 'n robbers server, there isn't any difference in this, and for a server like this, it's a big shame. 

[Sparkles]

2 hours ago, Consistency said:

I can agree with the first change although it will just incentivize PK and suicide by cop more than it already is because most people don't want to spend a long time in jail, not to mention actually roleplaying the process. I don't think  a plead system is going to do anything to counter the amount of crime. Instead it will just complicate the arrest process. I speak from experience and know of others who don't wish to file even more paperwork than already is required. The whole plead thing seems like a carbon copy from another server. It's something to keep an eye on but in my opinion there are other features that need to be prioritized. The excuse of it being "just a game" shouldn't be brushed aside. At the end of the day if you implement 1:1 procedures of the Justice system in real life no one would play. 

Players can already choose to go to trial for their charges. We have one trial going on right now (People v Paul Jenkins) and one incoming. So the complaint about it being complicated by an item addition is a moot point. 

 

Your arrest record is the same paperwork. If you don't write a sufficient one for the DAs office to know the probable cause, you get contacted ic. That's the same way it works right now if someone wants a trial. If you don't respond to the request, then your leadership will get contacted ic about the refusal to cooperate. If the DAs office has to decline to prosecute because of a lack of evidence, that will be on the arresting LEO. 

[Tungsten]

8 hours ago, GiamPy said:

I would like to add a small point that having days in prison, instead of hours, makes a bit more realistic the fact that if somebody is being imprisoned for murder, they don't come back straight from the prison after just 6-8 hours (I don't remember the punishment) and be like "Hey, I'm back after making a mass murder just after 8 hours of prison!".

this is a huge reason why I like the model of days vs hours! it poses more IC consequences.

 

Consider what happens if half of a gang gets pinched on a murder rap— that would be a prime opportunity for the rival gang to move in on some turf, and potentially weakens the gang significantly.

 

same if one by one members start getting life sentences on three-strikes felony convictions, that can seriously weaken the number of that gang’s “hitters”. it would be equally as crippling if the leader gets a life sentence, and the gang might have a sudden change of leadership.

 

The biggest motivator here however is to give people a reason to go to court. Why contest charges in court when it’s just 60 minutes of AFK in prison you have to endure? if sentences are longer and folks don’t want to fight it, they can go to court or potentially even bail out until the court end of a case.

[CYBER]

I hope I'm not going off topic here, but - If the goal is to give characters reasons to go to court,  and we agree that long term prison time is more of a player based punishment - "AFK in prison" - Lets punish a character instead. Ex-convicts have their own problems.

Anyway, I lean more towards probation/juvenile probation and rehabilitation. Probationary officers can also bring something new to the server and it can be made so that LEO's and Gangs can have different types of encounters, in addition to what they already have. Of course, this is only if we make it mandatory for Prob officer to be accompanied by a LEO. - That may also help us move away from this cops and robbers narrative (Respect to Crazybob's CnP though).

Back to the problem - To get rid of the restrictions all together - we would need DOJ. As court can remove restrictions on a frozen bank account. Also, the restriction is just for example, it can be done on Veh License, Rights to purchase vehicles, houses - register companies or businesses, etc. All this of course for limited period of time, as I don't think it's fair if this kind of restriction exceeds one month (In the most severe cases ((999 minutes in prison))). So at the end of the day, I think that RP encounters between PD/SD - GOV (Or whoever probationary officers will be under) - Gang, will increase. +Long term and "felt" character consequences.

I am not very sure about bank restriction however, as it has its strong and weak suits. It is pretty hard for ex-convicts to find a job. If bank accounts are frozen, they'd be "forced" to find some ways to get paid, cash only, as at some point they may need to replenish their bank balance - [To pay the rent, loan etc]. Now in theory it may have some effect on business and overall economy. 
1- Weapon exchange rate may reduce - because of lack of usable money for ex-convicts. ... Or increase - Because of stocked up guns that can be sold.
2- Staff for business openings may be easier to find  {Attempt to revive few businesses] - As businesses are allowed to give out salary in cash.

3- Robbery rate may increase, also those people who spend time fishing - We all have been there...

Effects of this can be drastic however, also it must be argued that it may not change anything and people won't be willing to go through that hassle (contacting the court, etc) Just to remove some restrictions. However, I think, it will have a little less backlash compared to changing hours with days.

So idk xD

Edited September 1, 2023 by _CYBER_

[Tseard1]

Would love to get a response from the legal faction team on this matter..

 

It’s quite astonishing that we’ve only had 2 criminal cases and one civil case, with a handful of warrants thus far since launch.