Use of Weapons (Legal or Illegal)

[JesterJr]

Hello!

To start off, I am part of LSSD as a Traffic Deputy - so as you can guess, I am not looking to get into constant shots fired and pursuits. My "job" in the server is to literally patrol and enforce traffic Laws. Yes I'm the guy who pulls you over for not having your lights on in darkness and cite you for it!

 

The reason of this topic is to point out that from my perspective, the past two days I logged into the server went on my patrol and I tried to pull over people on traffic violations.

 

(You can skip that part since it's story time, probably one sided, but it's a discussion thread!)

 

Spoiler

I will not name anyone , this ain't a topic to debate any player punishment as I seek none. It's a discussion and food for thought to somewhat increase our RP quality and your interactions with the Law Enforcement and other factions/players.

In the first case, during a traffic stop for Traffic Law violation, I have no clue why but someone (out of the vehicle) shot my rear left tire and the two in the car left. The location of the incident was a rather populated street (Strawberry), where in our case as cops we're not allowed to escalate situations (such as conduct PITs, get out of our patrol cars without backup so we RP some fear etc), but some random person shot my tire and the two in the car fled the scene. I am not aware if they fled cause they were scared or if they were part of it but what I know is that I just wanted to have a traffic stop and I got shot at.

 

I logged after this incident cause I was somewhat demotivated to continue roleplaying.

 

In the second case, which happened yesterday, I pulled over two people in a car for driving recklessly. During the traffic stop, they IC-wise gave me wrong names, I tagged along with the RP as they refused to pass me any IDs or licenses, so I RP'd noting things down so I can run the names on the MDC. When I got into my cruiser to RP my part, the driver got out, opened fire at me and I survived the shootout by fleeing. (There were only 2 cops on duty at that time)

 

At this point I started wondering why I got shot at during a traffic stop, from a person who didn't even conceal their face to do so in front of my dashcam.

 

Later on, after RPing my injuries I went back on patrol since I didn't wanna log out. We received a tip from a 911 that a stolen vehicle is spotted in a gang neighborhood. With backup I arrived on scene, we did a very low profile approach but it ended up in a pursuit. The pursuit was during the thunderstorm and the vehicle was a supercar which kept going super fast, regardless the weather conditions. At some point I lose visual and I ended up in a block where the vehicle went on an off ramp in the incorrect (for them) lane a crashed head-on with my patrol car. The driver (suspect) got knocked off their car and got into BW mode. Without any RP, they accepted death and wanted me not to force a CK on them after that incident. While I wasn't planning to even report is since I cannot force anyone to CK, but it also ruined my vibe to continue playing, cause again - it was a player who has been around for 2 hours, doing illegal stuff (shooting at cops, evading in supercars) without any sort of proper RP and when they messed up and died, didn't want to CK cause "they were just having fun". A good note: This is the same player who shot at me during the traffic stop with 2 peace officers on duty an hour ago prior to that pursuit.

 

 

What I am wondering is...

 

Why you shoot at a cop?

Why you evade a peace officer?

Why you attack a rival faction?
Why you engage yourself in illegal activities?

 

Then it brings up the follow up questions...

 

How you will get away by shooting & evading?

How you will attack a rival faction to properly evade it afterwards without being shot back by cops who will get on the scene?

How will you sell drugs without being caught?

Did you give the proper chance on the other side to realize your character is under the influence of something which results to excessive behavior?

 

I have been both in the legal and illegal scene myself. I remember when I was in the illegal scene, I had to put a reason behind every single illegal action I did. And I never shot at cops and I RP'd an MC President for about 3 years in SAMP. On the contrary, I was RPing with cops a lot, I was friendly and approachable to them - unless they started threatening my people or me. However, when I was being cornered, I wouldn't shoot to just die and continue. I RP'd my punishment - I wanted to develop my char even if it was a night in the local precinct. Because that's development of your illegal character.

 

So I killed someone? Why I killed him? Because he was a threat to my faction or my people. Because that's how outlaws work and it's not prison. Usually when you know more than you should, you die in that case. How did I do it? Discreetly, without too much noise. If possible a setup, if not - quick and gone. If cops caught up to me? If I'm outnumbered, I wouldn't take the chances of dying. I'll prefer my character spending time to develop him. There's also always the part that your character might be under the influence of a drug - where actions can be excessive and consider less your fear. For example, a character under the influence of cocaine, will not put too much thought into attacking someone especially if their background is violent. A person under meth influence, would have the same attitude and maybe be super aggressive if he's confronted while he's under the influence. That's understandable - but you have to RP it appropriately.

 

In my case, if I confront a civilian who is under the influence, but doesn't RP anything that shows me the signs but at some point they pull a gun and shoot at me or attack me to punch me or anything alike, because they are under the influence and their actions can be excessive - then for me, I will consider it subpar RP. Cause you never gave me any chance to realize your character is under some influence. If you did, my character could have been more defensive and alert in our confrontation. And you'll realize that the RP in the end of the day will be more enjoyable for all of us. Even if it ends up with you arrested or me six feet under. I wouldn't mind dying over a situation - as long as the RP is proper.

 

 

I'm saying this again, this is a food for thought thread. I am not pointing any fingers but more of brainstorming my experience in the server the past 2 days.

 

How can we fix it?
Who can fix it?
Are you here to RP or run around with a gun?

Is your sole purpose in the server to shoot over petty reasons?
Is it a proper reason to shoot at a cop over driving without a license & carrying an unlicensed firearm? (Both misdemeanors, about 40 mins in jail).

Is it fine if a cop rushes into a gang neighborhood and tries to arrest a single suspect? If not, why is it proper for someone to risk dying over a misdemeanor arrest?

 

These are genuine questions I make to myself before I login.

[trashstar]

punishments are too lax

most people ARE here just to shoot

most civilians migrated back to the other server so ur left primarily with cops and felons

 

dire state indeed

[JesterJr]

3 minutes ago, trashstar said:

punishments are too lax

most people ARE here just to shoot

most civilians migrated back to the other server so ur left primarily with cops and felons

 

dire state indeed

 

So, you think a solution would be to properly setup the civilian side so we get more civilian roleplayers around?

Meanwhile make it strict when it comes to weapon use from anyone?

Edited August 2, 2023 by JesterJr

[Tungsten]

Answering with what I think most criminal roleplayers nowadays would answer:

 

Quote

Why you shoot at a cop?

Why you evade a peace officer?

Why you attack a rival faction?
Why you engage yourself in illegal activities?

1. because kills = fun

2. because evading = fun

3. because kills = fun

4. because illegal = chance of conflict = kills = fun

 

--

 

As stated in @SCANDALOUZ's thread in various different ways, people have departed from the realm of realistic roleplay and storytelling. Instead, this mindset of "Well I want to log on for 2 hours and just have fun" has infected the player base like a zombie virus. So, with that in mind...

 

How can we fix it?

Institute a rule called No Value for Life (NVFL) where if a player does things on their character that, if taken completely IC, would tend to result in the death or serious injury of their character almost certainly, then there ought to be a Forced CK in such a scenario. This means if you shoot at a cop when you are clearly outnumbered, that should be the first and last time the character ever does it... a Forced CK serves as an inflection point that makes shooting at the cops a big event not just an everyday occurrence. It gives people a reason to throw down their gun, or to put their hands up, instead of shooting back at the cops simply to escape accountability.

 

Alternatively, this could be included as part of the Powergaming rule as unrealistic conduct. No real-life criminal, unless they're suicidal or plain crazy, would turn and shoot at a group of police simply to avoid prison. Prison is always preferable to death in real life, except maybe for people facing three-strikes life sentences.

Who can fix it?

Administration, if they create a new rule that covers the above

Is it a proper reason to shoot at a cop over driving without a license & carrying an unlicensed firearm? (Both misdemeanors, about 40 mins in jail).

No. This is poor roleplay and demonstrates no value for life.

 

Is it fine if a cop rushes into a gang neighborhood and tries to arrest a single suspect? If not, why is it proper for someone to risk dying over a misdemeanor arrest?

No, a cop should have multiple backup units for this purpose or otherwise not do it.

[JesterJr]

I fully agree on the Force CK rule which I believe will fix most of the issues when it comes to no sense shootings. I am not targeting only shootings against cops now, cause in the end of the day, cops enjoy a good shootout too.

 

Let's not forget, that cops are passively Roleplaying here. The root of roleplay is the illegal & civilian scene, who have to create the scenarios. Cops usually are passively involved in those scenes and can provide good RP from their end. But they're usually the receiving end of RP, which in my head, gives the other side the upper hand on how the scenario will escalate. This is also the magic in RP.

 

Furthermore, I believe that any poor based shooting which results into the aggressor's death, should lead to a Force CK. Cause apparently they do it to die or for the luls. If it's for the luls, I think Force CK will make them reconsider if this is a Medium → Heavy Roleplay Server or a FiveM RPG (RP) server.

 

Let's say, even if an illegal character, ends up in a silly situation where they confront 5-6 gang members and he decides to pull a gun instead of giving up; they should be forced to CK due to the situation they brought to themselves - it's pretty much suicide to avoid any repercussions.

 

Same should work for silly moves by cops. If a cop intentionally ends up in a gang neighborhood, outnumbered and decides to just pull a gun and act like a hero - in case they die, they should receive a force CK. If they survive, they should face serious IC consequences.

 

I've said it before in SD forums and I'll say it again. This is indeed a game. A roleplay and immersive environment. But still a game.

 

We should promote creativity, good roleplay and fair chances but up to an extent so we can keep a balance between immersion & fun.

Edited August 2, 2023 by JesterJr

[SCANDALOUZ]

TLDR:

 

People evade the police and shoot them up, yet only to avoid a speeding ticket, because said people are not here to roleplay.

 

I don't give a damn on what they say, how they try to spin it or what full of shit, far-reaching justification they have.

 

They aren't role players and they aren't here to role play. The server is treated like an RPG (not text based rp) and they are just looking for their daily dose of action.

 

The administration is hesitant to react and bring down the hammer on this behaviour, because the server is barely holding on to life as far as online numbers are concerned. The "playerbase" that we're discussing is probably a quarter of it. 

 

The biggest problem is that roleplayers are interested in and attracted to roleplay. Newcomers will join the server, try it out, and depending on their experience they will stay or go. Well, there's a 25% chance (take my statistics with a grain of salt) that their experience will be rather negative, or if not experience, then at least impression. I don't care for low level anti robbery rules and etc. Stupid behaviour is stupid and you don't have to be robbed. Sometimes just witnessing it is enough.

 

So, we're in this cursed circle of where we can't just instaban the RPGers if we want the server to be remotely alive, and we are also not as appealing as we could be to new people, because the server feels like it's full of guys banned for non-sense and DM on GTA:W and they just moved in here.

 

How do we fix it without instabanning people? C o n s e q u e n c e s

Edited August 2, 2023 by SCANDALOUZ

[JesterJr]

2 minutes ago, SCANDALOUZ said:

TLDR:

 

People evade the police and shoot them up, yet only to avoid a speeding ticket, because said people are not here to roleplay.

 

I don't give a damn on what they say, how they try to spin it or what full of shit, far-reaching justification they have.

 

They aren't role players and they aren't here to role play. The server is treated like an RPG (not text based rp) and they are just looking for their daily dose of action.

 

The administration is slow to react and bring down the hammer on this behaviour, because the server is barely holding on to life as far as online numbers are concerned. The "playerbase" that we're discussing is probably a quarter of it. 

 

The biggest problem is that roleplayers are interested in and attracted to roleplay. Newcomers will join the server, try it out, and depending on their experience they will stay or go. Well, there's a 25% chance (take my statistics with a grain of salt) that their experience will be rather negative, or if not experience, then at least impression.

 

So, we're in this cursed circle of where we can't just instaban the RPGers if we want the server to be remotely alive, and we are also not as appealing as we could be to new people, because the server feels like it's full of guys banned for non-sense and DM on GTA:W and they just moved in here.

 

How do we fix it without instabanning people? C o n s e q u e n c e s

 

 

I highly believe that LS-RP has a great script. If developed properly and with the proper support from the Staff against those bad apples, I believe we can really thrive in RageMP as a server.

 

But personally, we need to figure out a way of fixing the problem.

 

Consequences such as what would you suggest?

[SCANDALOUZ]

1 minute ago, JesterJr said:

 

 

I highly believe that LS-RP has a great script. If developed properly and with the proper support from the Staff against those bad apples, I believe we can really thrive in RageMP as a server.

 

But personally, we need to figure out a way of fixing the problem.

 

Consequences such as what would you suggest?

 

I'd like to see CKs fly with whatever system you have in mind (e.g. mine or alternatives others have suggested in the same thread). Let being a rambo have an actual danger element to it that makes people think twice.

 

Other things too, like permanent license revokes, car confiscations, lifetime in prison, etc.

 

Just consequences.

 

I can kill 10 people, evade the cops, die in a shootout with cops, respawn, spend $1000 on an easily accessible gun and go right back at it. Like c'mon is this heavy rp, or are we just saying it?

[JesterJr]

Lol I really agree with that. Personally I'd prefer 1-2 shootouts per 8-hours IG than 20 shootouts in 1 hour without any context in the RP around it.

 

I'd really like to see some input into that from the Staff team to be honest with you.

[SCANDALOUZ]

To add on, before someone says we are just mall rats bashing on illegal roleplay.

 

Get a reality check, the world isn't black and white and being an illegal character doesn't mean you have to be in a shootout or a police pursuit 24/7.

 

I roleplay around Vinewood. The place is all OCGs and ALL criminals. The only shootings we get are when some trigger happy "gangster" comes along.

 

We all, or for the most part, have crystal clean criminal records as well. Major Crimes are breathing down people's necks, but yeah.

 

My character is criminal as fuck. And he just shook hands with the Chief of Police last week.

 

This is illegal roleplay. The smart and lowkey criminals chill out in the world. The dumb ones are in prison or dead. In LSRP - the dumb criminals just respawn and go right back to being dumb criminals. Something wrong with that picture.

Edited August 2, 2023 by SCANDALOUZ

[Uncanny]

I believe it has something to do with mentality of people. If the mentality can't be changed, nothing will change no matter how much you punish people. I see a lot of people, basing their 'shooting roleplay' on real life scenarios, especially USA. People flock to the media and take away only the extremity cases - someone punches another person and he gets shot. Quite frankly, a lot of people base their roleplay by that, but it just doesn't make sense. If you're so weak mentally in real life that you can't take an insult in-game, you shouldn't play the game. As of now, some insults or brawls are like green lights for people just to hunt down others and DM. The aspect of possibility to roleplay some conflict is getting demolished by said mentality. I am speaking from illegal faction perspective - believe me, it is hectic as hell, not a lot of space to roleplay a conflict between factions, because majority of the time, you'll probably get shot instantly if you'll try to initiate some kind of brawl (I'm all for punching each other and roleplaying that than instantly go for AKs and wiping all of your opponents).

 

If we Force CK characters of DMers, they'll just create another character and grind out the levels so either they can rob, shoot or buy PF - that's the reality of the system. With prisons, people will automatically create another character for their endeavors as from the start they aren't here to roleplay.

 

That would be mine cookie in this conversation.

[SCANDALOUZ]

8 minutes ago, Uncanny said:

I believe it has something to do with mentality of people. If the mentality can't be changed, nothing will change no matter how much you punish people. I see a lot of people, basing their 'shooting roleplay' on real life scenarios, especially USA. People flock to the media and take away only the extremity cases - someone punches another person and he gets shot. Quite frankly, a lot of people base their roleplay by that, but it just doesn't make sense. If you're so weak mentally in real life that you can't take an insult in-game, you shouldn't play the game. As of now, some insults or brawls are like green lights for people just to hunt down others and DM. The aspect of possibility to roleplay some conflict is getting demolished by said mentality. I am speaking from illegal faction perspective - believe me, it is hectic as hell, not a lot of space to roleplay a conflict between factions, because majority of the time, you'll probably get shot instantly if you'll try to initiate some kind of brawl (I'm all for punching each other and roleplaying that than instantly go for AKs and wiping all of your opponents).

 

If we Force CK characters of DMers, they'll just create another character and grind out the levels so either they can rob, shoot or buy PF - that's the reality of the system. With prisons, people will automatically create another character for their endeavors as from the start they aren't here to roleplay.

 

That would be mine cookie in this conversation.

 

Unfortunately, this is nothing but facts.

 

I like how you brought up extreme real life cases. Roleplaying works with stereotypes, not extreme and unique cases and it does so for an obvious reason. To combat mary sue writing, these poor escalations and etc.

 

This is a fifteen year old community and most of the people claim to be old schoolers. How do you (not you, quote) not get this in 15 years, or are you even here to roleplay?

 

I don't see an easy solution sadly.

 

Let's at least make guns much harder to get.

Edited August 2, 2023 by SCANDALOUZ

[JesterJr]

I think it's a chain of things that need to be done to fix the issue at hand.

 

Make it harder to get a gun.

A player shouldn't find a gun in every corner they turn. Guns should be distributed from organized crime down to gangs and gangs should push them on the street to make some profit. Getting a gun from a gang member shouldn't be a walk in the park either. Both parties should properly roleplay some fear. The gang member should evaluate who they are selling to. A plug should be a friend or someone who proved their worth. Personally I remember back in SAMP, through my MC we would push guns only to people we trusted. That would be through IC means such as... "What have they done for us" "who was the connection to them" "why should we supply them with guns" "what we get in return".

 

Drugs is another thing. But guns, it's a serious threat.

 

PF Licenses to be monitored closely.

 

PF gangs should be eliminated. No one should be getting a PF license for the sake of running around killing cops/other players and just hide. We need serious moderation on that end and people should get their PF revoked or even generally banned from getting a PF if they are doing it over and over again. As in, OOC bans from PF license for DMers/known violators with malicious mindset.

 

Roleplay Quality Control.

 

Admins & testers need to moderate our RP Quality. No cop should be acting like a thug or act like a badass person who just came out from a police drama movie. Cops shouldn't act like Jason Statham on drug, but as regular people who don't even get paid enough for what they do. Same works for the counterpart. You do illegal activities to make money for a reason. That's to pay your rent, get your GF out for food, lifestyle, neighborhood you grew up into, adapt to a gang/group that needs you to prove loyalty.

If someone falls into illegal activity for the lols, they should consider a cops vs robbers server and not LS-RP. That's my idea around it.

 

That can only be controlled through the Staff and promoted by the playerbase which is part of the good image of this server and its legacy.

 

For me, it's just sad to see it rot like that at such early stages.

[SCANDALOUZ]

4 minutes ago, JesterJr said:

 

 

Roleplay Quality Control.

 

Admins & testers need to moderate our RP Quality. No cop should be acting like a thug or act like a badass person who just came out from a police drama movie. Cops shouldn't act like Jason Statham on drug, but as regular people who don't even get paid enough for what they do. Same works for the counterpart. You do illegal activities to make money for a reason. That's to pay your rent, get your GF out for food, lifestyle, neighborhood you grew up into, adapt to a gang/group that needs you to prove loyalty.

 

 

 

Good luck.

 

Last time I suggested some form of role play quality control people said that this is subjective as hell and who is anyone to tell anyone what is quality and what isn't. Staff also said that staff is already doing their job in punishing non-rpers.

[JesterJr]

It's weird to get that feedback on Quality Control. 

 

It shouldn't be enforced in form of rules. But more like consultation to go in line with the servers standards. 

 

It should base itself around what the server expects, where the server aims to be and how the server operates.

 

I believe that having some quality checks when necessary on players who might seem controversial might even keep them in the server instead of throwing the ajail hammer and get them punished.