Chuckles

There will be a wide array of weapons, calibres and attachments available. There will no need to replicate it as something else. Prices will differ, so this is why this should be enforced.

This is good point but again, I think having single-player based businesses would be harmful to the immersion we're trying to create here. Not only that, but players have the freedom to create any business they want, at any location they want. I think using businesses linked to single player is on the same wave length roleplaying a member of the Leone family from Liberty City. It's just relatively uncreative and taken from something make-belief. Opposite to what we're trying to achieve here. Especially considering most of them are based on Californian chains. Taco Bomb/Cluckin Bell is based on either Taco Bell or Taco John's, in addition to KFC. Up-N-Atom on In-N-Out so on so forth. I'd much rather see these. Most new players won't even read the lore but for those of us that do, it'd be good to come to some sort of consensus. I'd much rather see the knockoff clothing brands than having to mention them. On the contrary, I'd much rather the mention of these singleplayer branded businesses over the actual implementation of them.

Nothing on the actual map should be limited. Again, the problem with being an "island" by script limitation is that people take it at face value for what it is. They refuse to roleplay a connection to the mainland because there is no bridge. yet will gladly acknowledge San Fierro and Las Venturas as a part of San Andreas despite its absence from the actual map. I think it's somewhat contradicting. I don't think any of us advocating for this have any problem in acknowledging Las Venturas and San Fierro as parts of San Andreas, despite the non-existence of it. But those advocating against have a problem with hypothesizing this "bridge" for whatever reason. I think there's too much literalism involved and this adds to the problem. Putting aside the states listed as an example, I think most of us would be satisfied with just a connection to the mainland in general. There should be ways in and out of what is realistically California, without the need for a plane or boat. It's not Hawaii. Edit: Again, to reiterate, the OP is a draft. It will be gradually updated throughout the process of this thread to accommodate the majority opinion. Whether for or against our original intention! Thanks for the dialogue.

Additionally, there is no need to replace street names or anything of that nature. Los Santos becomes the replacement. Vinewood still acts as Hollywood. Vespucci Beach still acts as Venice Beach. Nothing changes.

As far as we know it's, "we're an island on the Pacific Ocean with no connection to the mainland."

Personally, there has been very little mention of the names of these locations since around 2015-2016, so it's a rare occurrence now. I think this mindset died out when the server and its players started to become a lot more realism-focused. My personal problem isn't with the names being used as a reference, it's with people using the lore of these cities to justify their presence in SA. The "Las Vegas" replaces "Las Venturas" and "San Francisco replaces San Fierro" is basically aimed at this exact problem. Generally, it's immersion breaking for the majority of the server but it wouldn't be something enforceable on a wider scale. It's more of a guideline.

Again, I'd be against using Liberty City as a replacement for New York. But I wouldn't be against using their equivalent names like San Fierro and Las Venturas, granted that we don't use its GTA lore.

If anything, the cut-off point gives factions real and authentic history to build on. This system doesn't effect those who wish to define their own history, given that there is no history to build on. The lore states that despite being based on their equivalents, the LSPD and government agencies implement their own fictitious customs, laws and rules. From what we've been told, the server is a fresh start. There is no history to scrap. All characters, factions and history is new. Nothing is being scrapped but factions are being given the freedom to build off of this history. It affects nothing once the server launches. All history will remain that, history. I have never once seen people on this platform use San Fierro, Liberty City or Vice City be used as a reference point, background story or conversation. We have disallowed single player lore, I don't see why we'd allow or advocate for the acknowledgement of these fictional cities when we're pushing for the replacement of California. Acknowledging Las Vegas and San Francisco opens the door for fact-based, real-time roleplay and opens the door for limitless roleplaying possibilities. Whether it's news, flights or general acknowledgement of events, should this be sacrificed to accommodate some mediocre background story that states "they flew in from liberty city"? San Andreas has never been roleplayed as the 51st state or an "island," for that matter. It's been universally recognized as California's replacement. I don't get the argument, on one hand "bordering Oregon doesn't make sense because 'San Andreas has its own coastline" but in the same breath it's mentioned and acknowledged as an island. Having a real connection to the mainland is much more prosperous for the players who don't want to fly in. MCs, for example, can roleplay connections to their mother charters. Straw purchases (that make up a lot of the gun market) can go through realistic channels without having to take a boat. Again, despite replacing the LSPD and government respectively, everything that happens in-game is at their complete discretion. Even if modelled around real-life, its implementation and enforcement comes from their own ideologies. If we have our own weather system tailored around California then we'll edit it. We've been relatively in the dark, so anything script-related has been overlooked and will be rectified accordingly. The pros outweigh the cons here. But again, this draft will be constructed by the public. And if a proposal receives overwhelming support and makes sense, it will replace this work in progress.

As a result of this thread myself, @Mac, the Faction Team and @largehazard or Liam took these concerns seriously and devised a plan to accommodate the majority opinion that is the replacement of California with San Andreas but in addition to a "compromise" that allows for the implementation of small-parts of northern California to replace extensions of their map-equivalents. Never before has this been done and we believe it will be a monumental moment in the server's growth as a heavy roleplay server. Not only does this expansion into uncharted territory allow roleplaying freedom conjoined with realism but it recognizes San Andreas as it's supposed to be, as California, the 31st state of the United States. This is still a work in progress and open to interpretation but the foundations of (our opinion) a realism-focused server varied with certain fictitious aspects will, in the long term, attract likeminded players while also being respective of the fun of the game. Before forwarding this to management we thought we would open it to public scrutiny so that those it will ultimately affect can have their voice heard in the interest of transparency. It started as a player discussion and we hope that it will end as a player discussion. Collectively, this is a draft (work in progress) that with public backing, we hope to forward to management for consideration: Los Santos, San Andreas, is a city based on Los Angeles, California. As a result of this, and LS-RP's stance on heavy-roleplay, Los Santos, San Andreas will act as a replacement for Los Angeles, California and part of its surrounding area. San Andreas will therefore replace California as the United States' 31st and second largest state. Encircled by states like Oregon to the north, Nevada and Arizona to the east, and Mexico's Baja California to the south, its coastline on the Pacific Ocean on the west acts as "the 5 borders of San Andreas." For a more immersive experience and in the interest of server continuity, we are only roleplaying on-map locations as replacements for real life locations, therefore San Francisco, Las Vegas, Miami, and New York all remain the same. In addition to this, factions and players may use real events, history and backgrounds to construct both individual and faction background stories up until the cut-off point of 2019, granted that it doesn't coincide with key parts of our own server lore including key figures such as members of the government, police department, fire department and known criminals who also replace their real-life equivalents. This will apply for immersive purposes only to things like the weather, news (country-wide) and information to create a realistic character or faction background. In a nutshell, faction and character backgrounds may contain real-life history up until 2019 then everything after that must become fictitious. Despite having a SoSan (SoCal) dominant stance on SA:MP, we have decided to step into GTA V with a more neutral stance on the subject to create even more opportunities for the players. Under this circumstance, we will be tailoring our map around different parts of California. Paleto Bay and Grapeseed will replicate specific areas and the cultures inspired by Northern California or as referenced, NorCal. Players who roleplay from here may take inspiration from areas like Bakersfield and Fresno where north/south lines converge. Both coasts have dissimilar cultures and this should be taken into consideration when roleplaying in or around either one. The driving distance between LS and these areas will be anywhere between 1.5-3 hours depending on time of day and traffic, so roleplay in accordance to this estimate. Law enforcement agents who receive calls or backup requests may bypass this rule. For this reason, the designated area will serve as LSRP's northern San Andreas aka NorSan. There would be no real distinction between the two if we were to remain entirely based on Southern California so instead, we created this compromise. To summarize: Los Santos, SA replaces Los Angeles, CA San Andreas, USA replaces California, USA Paleto Bay, Blaine County no replacement, loosely based on areas north of the Bay Area (doesn't go that far North, e.g towards Oregon) because of the environment/name i.e redwood forest and "Pelato Bay" (Pelican Bay State Prison) Grapeseed, Blaine County no replacement, loosely based on more 'central' northern areas like the Salinas Valley and other farming towns like this. Sandy Shores, Blaine County, no replacement, loosely based on Inland Empire area to the east/southeast of LA. It remains part of SoSan. San Fierro exists in name alone, it inhabits everything else from San Francisco Las Venturas exists in name alone, it inhabits everything else from Las Vegas Vice City does not exist Liberty City does not exist The Alamo Sea is the traditional north/south diving line. If you're south of it, you're in SoSan. If you're north of it, you're in NorSan. The two communities on either side (Sandy Shores and Grapeseed) can therefore be considered both 'central' and 'north/south' respectively, depending on context, as the communities around Bakersfield, Fresno etc. are irl. Blaine County will represent California's Kern County (Bakersfield area). Sandy Shores, Paleto Bay and Grapeseed are all within Blaine County. Blaine County is a central area which can be considered both northern San Andreas and Southern Andreas, depending on where you are within it. E.g. Sandy Shores is considered more southern, Paleto Bay is considered northern. Los Santos County will replace Los Angeles County Los Santos Police Department The Los Santos Police Department draws heavy inspiration from the Los Angeles Police Department and will replace it in principle. In order to strike a balance between the game and real-life, the faction applies small fictional elements in some aspects of its organization in order to ensure that progression within the faction, as well as work delegation, is done properly. Nonetheless, all procedures and inner workings of the faction's role-play are drawn from the Los Angeles Police Department. The faction's manual and procedures are a direct port, that received small adjustments here and there, from the Los Angeles Police Department in order to ensure that the faction portrays its counterpart to the fullest extent. Unless an individual is specifically knowledgeable about the LAPD, they will not be able to notice the difference between the LSPD and the LAPD, which the faction aims to portray to the fullest extent. It is also worth mentioning that the faction's fleet similarly represents the LAPD, as well as the uniform standard. Our vehicles and uniforms are also restricted based on what the LAPD does. The faction furthermore enforces an age policy in order to ensure realistic character progression. In order to make this more clear to the regular player and aspiring faction members, LSPD = LAPD. Sports Teams - LA = LS Real life sports teams will be acknowledged with the replacement of LA for LS. For example, LS Rams replaces LA rams. LS Lakers replaces LA Lakers and the Los Santos Dodgers replaces the Los Angeles Dodgers. Because of this, players will have the ability to root for their native teams. Modded sportswear with the real-life equivalent names are allowed but when speaking, writing or wagering on your team, it must be substituted with its lore-friendly name. Everything from the fonts to colouring will remain the same. Additionally, you may also pluralize them as a compromise. Namely "the Rams," or "the Lakers" or "the Dodgers." Clothing and Body Art Real life clothing can be roleplayed in addition to what is made available by the script and modding team. However, if it is personal modifications, players and law enforcement personnel may describe and identify you based on what is noticeable and available to them. This applies to both clothing and body art, anything that substitutes something for something else. Additionally, the modded replacement must be listed in your character description e.g a MC-affiliated vest or "kutte" replacing a vanilla version of it. Anything that doesn't go without saying must be listed for immersive purposes. Weapons, Ammunition and Attachments Our weapon and ammunition portrayal will be dictated by script, where developers have worked tirelessly to implement a system based on San Andreas' real-life equivalent. Whatever they are named and modelled after is what they will be roleplayed as with no exceptions. Damage from weapon, ammunition and attachments will be taken into account when roleplaying injuries or declaring deaths in accordance to realism. Vehicles Vehicles remain in their original GTA V form and replace their real-life equivalents. To name a few of the more common vehicles, the Ubermacht replaces BMW, Obey replaces Audi, certain Benefactor models replace certain Mercedes models so on so fourth. An official guide will be posted in the correct section where players can draw inspiration from. Vehicles driven by players must suit their character's ambition, situation and financial circumstance and must make sense for their individual characters. For instance, if your character owns a variant of the Benefactor, it makes no sense to go on robberies or sprees in it, especially if registered to you. Brands and GTA franchises A lot of GTA's branding and franchises are modelled around real life. For example, Tim Vapid is Tom Ford, Sebastian Dix is Christian Dior, Blagueurs is Balenciaga/Vetements, Anna Rex is Calvin Klein and Sand Castle is Stone Island. As a result, these brands will be considered bootlegged versions of their real life equivalents unless there is no available substitute. If there is no available clothing to replicate their equivalent, it may be addressed via description so that players have the opportunity to examine and acknowledge it. Food chains such as Cluckin Bell, Taco Bomb and Hookies are all also considered low-end and domestic fast food chains and can be acknowledged if necessary. Factions based on single player organizations are disallowed. Special thanks to: largehazard aka Liam Mac LSPD Leadership, Benavides Faction Team Kane for allowing us to take this to the public domain The public and xander11 for bringing it to attention in the first place All contributions from the original poll Again, there is room for improvement. This is still highly a work in progress and isn't official. This is a proposal on behalf of us, the public in sync with the Faction Team.

I know the developers are extremely busy with finalizing the server, so I exclude them from this request: I'd like to see all other members of the management team involved in these 'lore' decisions engage with the public in a live Q&A to answer questionings surrounding not only this, but in regards to everything else that directly correlated to it. A discussion in real time while everyone awaits the release would show engagement and help us understand the thought process behind these decisions that effectively ruins our experience. There is an overwhelming majority voting against this, yet there is still no movement on it. "There is no bridge so there is no connection to the mainland" is a decision that directly contradicts what it is to be a heavy roleplay server. There is no direct flights but we still roleplay going on vacation when we're inactive. There is no prison to separate male and female inmates, yet people refuse to roleplay it as a shared facility. I don't think the management should be setting this precedent, wherein they take things quite literally. It shows a lack of understanding. Additionally, to address Bennemus' comment above: I have been roleplaying on this server from 2007 and never has it been roleplayed as an individual "island" since around 2015, before the server started to focus on realism. San Andreas has ALWAYS replaced California. I don't know where this analogy is coming from. The existence of California has never been acknowledged throughout the course of LSRPs existence.

I don't know what's happened but at one point in time everything on the server was diagrammed. An agreement, by common accord, was that San Andreas substituted Southern California. This was the inspiration for a lot of rules, factions and mapping additions. The Mexican Mafia and PEN1 dominates the prison system, the white and hispanic streets gangs pay homage respectively, both the PD and SD have units named after their real life equivalence and everything including vernacular, dialect and cultures are adapted to as much immersion as possible. Not only this, but for half a decade factions have used this how-to to realistically administer drugs and weapons coming into the city through its neighbouring cities like Nevada, Arizona and Utah. We seem to be on a backwards trajectory since the transition to GTA V with no real template in mind. To me, this "San Andreas co-exists with California" puts us in a parallel universe, somewhere we're all foreign to. And I'd say it is a view comparative to those who advocate for single player gangs, completely opposite of what a heavy roleplay server should be enforcing. The fact of the matter is, by enforcing this, it removes all the foundations we've built for over a decade where there's a pretty much unanimity around the formulation. The blacks roleplay in South Central for this reason. The Hispanics roleplay in Rancho for this reason. Armenian Power roleplay in Vinewood for this reason. Without this agreement, what's generally being preached is that it's now a free-for-all. A lot of people came back because of the old prototype. The foundations were strong, the factions were strong and the enforcement was strong, but fair. There has been a lot of mixed signals sent out recently that indicates a lack of accord and structure. And I'm bewildered because a lot of this should have been covered. What I don't understand is how the developers have managed to almost complete the server but everything else is essentially barebones basic. There is no real modus operandi, no real directory to make players culturally aware of anything beyond development. Everything feels muddled and last-minute when realistically, the server should be the last thing ready. Everything else should have been addressed weeks, if not months ago. This island shit has to stop. We should replace California and we should be bordered by Nevada, Arizona and other neighbouring cities. If this is to be enforced, it should be at the very least an open-dialogue and not an open-and-shut thread. My only ask is that this thread remains open and isn't closed until we're all satisfied with the OP's canvass. Surely this approach doesn't come because there's "no bridge"?

Additionally, this is something you'd can't go back on once the server launches. This should be considered as soon as possible.

I'll be more elaborate on this later on because I'm on my phone, but the idea of being an island based on California while California still exists is very contradictory in itself. Especially considering a lot of the penal codes, law enforcement agencies and factions use it for inspiration. It's easy to give factions and players creative freedom without the need of being a fictional state. This has always been the theme and I don't see the need for the change now. If the problem is lore, this could have been handled very easily ahead of time. It's something both legal and illegal faction management could have revised. I think this approach is bone laziness. Nothing should change from SA-MP other than the recognition of Las Vegas and San Francisco as real cities.

I think the consensus is that low-mid stake games are not really a concern but these high-stake games tend to be relatively unregulated, unrealistic and unchallenged. I'd be in favour of introducing some form of not regulation, but separation. I think if we found a way to segregate them both we'd be working towards common ground. I'm against script regulation for low-mid stake games but high stakes should require some sort of imposition. So, IC laws should generally prohibit it all from that perspective and that perspective alone, but unrealistically high stake games should be modulated and kept under control. Possibly the implementation of two script features. Low stakes games should be playable with a deck of cards and cash and there's a limit on blinds. High stake games would require poker chips that would bypass the aforementioned limit on blinds in which its logs would be moderated. And I know poker chips are readily accessible to everyone but it's about finding a suitable arrangement to accommodate two contrasting situations.

Maybe I have found myself lost in translation, but the OP's suggestion is to align the laws around gambling in sync with the rest of the laws it incorporates -- based on actuality. This restriction will affect everyone, regardless of category. Legal roleplayers have just as much incentive to gamble illegally than the illegal roleplayers do, the same way they do in real life. Not all "backroom poker games" are like the stereotype you just described, in fact, they're the opposite. Outside of states like Nevada, New Jersey and Illinois, private gambling is a lot more widespread for civilians than the people representing the genre even know or will admit. Just because it's illegal by definition doesn't mean they don't do it.

Adding onto the fact that it's illegalized in California, illegalizing it on LSRP would also increase interactions between criminals and the aforementioned civilians who are probably compulsive gamblers. Not only would it heighten roleplay around gambling but also roleplay around loansharking and other civilian-criminal interactions too, much more than the norm which is hiring them to work their legal fronts for an hour or two.

Paul O'Grady doing a little trolling, is he?

Alright shag. How goeth thee battle?

Are you trying to get me bullied, Genny?

ICF, now we're going back in time. Anthony Winter here

It was dead long before it ended. GTA V will reinvigorate it. Make new memories.

Good seeing some familiar faces again for a change.