Can we bring back the old playerbase count?

[DDaniels]

3 hours ago, JesterJr said:

 

That's a problem of how the server at some point became very sensitive on how they treat illegal factions & groups on the perspective of policing the server.

 

When rules started coming out of "playing fair" and "giving the other side a chance", police RPers who used to RP in the Detective division, lost their motivation & their will to play.

 

Why? Because everytime they managed to get themselves a nice case, with solid proof evidence of reckless gangs / LCNs / MCs, they'd be faced with the "OH GIVE THEM A CHANCE TO PLAY, NO NEED TO WIN EVERY SITUATION".

That kicked a chain reaction.

 

The chain reaction is that you have illegal factions literally sitting around with AKs & M4s, doing hits that make no sense - because they know there's no Detective to hunt them down and put them in prison / get them shut down, so basically there's no risk.

LS-RP put things on auto pilot, trusting entirely that the illegal factions will act sensible and respect common sense.

Why? Because the IFM back then was a circle jerk of illegal RPers who just wanted to protect their factions, fuel the server with countless weapons and protect their RP bubble. I believe this is not the case now in LS-RP, thus why I keep having faith in it.

 

This is proven to be wrong.

Illegal Factions are super reckless, they kill cops broad daylight, they perform bad deals & proceed with literally dealing large amounts of guns & drugs in Idlewood Pizza Stacks, leading to a more "cops and robbers" server, than a heavy RP server which criminals face the consequences of what they do wrong.

 

Cops became incompetent and they are right now just a punching bag for criminals who roam around with M4s & AKs in cars 4-deep.

 

How to fix the chain reaction?

Give Detective Units the power to shut down factions again, using proper evidence & procedure.

 

That will push illegal factions to deal smaller arms, carefully and precisely doing risky things out of the blue just to do it.

That will push illegal factions to not sell to random trolls or casual DMers who most likely got cops on their asses, because if they're caught selling to them - they will be targeted by the respective Gangs or Organized Crime division, kickstarting a case which might lead to the closure of their faction.

Have LSPD's Gangs unit doing Task Forces down on Idlewood / Jefferson / Ganton areas, suppressing the low-budget criminals who deal guns for 100k, which makes no sense at all.

Meanwhile, create a team within LSRP's Staff, which should regulate roleplay quality, and monitor these interactions.

 

Make cop RP competitive again.

 

While I do agree with you, with the current state of PD and SD I would rather not see something like this implemented. I've never in my life witnessed such a play2win, metagaming group of people. Of course there's a bunch of good ones aswell, but there's a whole squad of bad apples ruining it for the rest. There's cops who are using nametags, who are using the samp addon thingy that lets you see guns through windows and cops that pull people over because there might be a chance that they're armed, just to provoke a shootout. I've had to witness this multiple times and everytime I've had to get an admin to come and fix it, with them ruling in our favour each and every single time. There's also situations where the admins don't arrive.

 

Back in the days I used to be very surprised if people shot cops to avoid a prison sentence, because shit like this wouldn't happen. But now I can see why it's a decision people make: no one wants to ruin their character development and serve time in prison because certain people had to ruin it.

 

Giving these people the power to close down factions is going to make it even worse.

[Assilimwen]

30 minutes ago, DDaniels said:

 

While I do agree with you, with the current state of PD and SD I would rather not see something like this implemented. I've never in my life witnessed such a play2win, metagaming group of people. Of course there's a bunch of good ones aswell, but there's a whole squad of bad apples ruining it for the rest. There's cops who are using nametags, who are using the samp addon thingy that lets you see guns through windows and cops that pull people over because there might be a chance that they're armed, just to provoke a shootout. I've had to witness this multiple times and everytime I've had to get an admin to come and fix it, with them ruling in our favour each and every single time. There's also situations where the admins don't arrive.

 

Back in the days I used to be very surprised if people shot cops to avoid a prison sentence, because shit like this wouldn't happen. But now I can see why it's a decision people make: no one wants to ruin their character development and serve time in prison because certain people had to ruin it.

 

Giving these people the power to close down factions is going to make it even worse.

As for the cops seeing guns through windows - It is an unnegotiable term that comes with having SilentPatch, a pretty useful Patch for GTA San Andreas. I'm pretty sure most players, regardless of a vanilla/modded game have it installed and I'm also sure that this rule about SilentPatch not being allowed on LS-RP has been disbanded more than half a decade ago. 

Also, let's not kid anybody, who really does character development of all the illegal roleplayers running around 4-deep, constantly ambushing cops with the pettiest reasons on a traffic stop that would've earned them a ticket at max if they just RPed hiding their guns under the seats or something. We all know illegal RPers looove to play victim whenever they get the chance, due to how "overpowered" the law enforcement side is from the server when probably half of them have not been in a single law enforcement faction on LSRP and even if that doesn't limit their knowledge, they probably don't care enough to see PD/SD side, they just cry. 

[Assilimwen]

3 hours ago, XSystem said:

It's too late. Too many good factions have closed for well known reasons. Almost all the good factions are closed, while RPG factions are roaming around.

 

Everything has its limits.

It's never too late, admins just need to start being pro-active and keeping everybody to a standard. 

[Assilimwen]

3 hours ago, JesterJr said:

 

That's a problem of how the server at some point became very sensitive on how they treat illegal factions & groups on the perspective of policing the server.

 

When rules started coming out of "playing fair" and "giving the other side a chance", police RPers who used to RP in the Detective division, lost their motivation & their will to play.

 

Why? Because everytime they managed to get themselves a nice case, with solid proof evidence of reckless gangs / LCNs / MCs, they'd be faced with the "OH GIVE THEM A CHANCE TO PLAY, NO NEED TO WIN EVERY SITUATION".

That kicked a chain reaction.

 

The chain reaction is that you have illegal factions literally sitting around with AKs & M4s, doing hits that make no sense - because they know there's no Detective to hunt them down and put them in prison / get them shut down, so basically there's no risk. [...]

 

I very much agree with what @JesterJr said here. The whole "fair play" and "LEO is pay2win" topic is so taboo and it's always been used as a loophole for criminals to get out of sticky situations. 

[DDaniels]

5 minutes ago, Assilimwen said:

As for the cops seeing guns through windows - It is an unnegotiable term that comes with having SilentPatch, a pretty useful Patch for GTA San Andreas. I'm pretty sure most players, regardless of a vanilla/modded game have it installed and I'm also sure that this rule about SilentPatch not being allowed on LS-RP has been disbanded more than half a decade ago. 

Also, let's not kid anybody, who really does character development of all the illegal roleplayers running around 4-deep, constantly ambushing cops with the pettiest reasons on a traffic stop that would've earned them a ticket at max if they just RPed hiding their guns under the seats or something. We all know illegal RPers looove to play victim whenever they get the chance, due to how "overpowered" the law enforcement side is from the server when probably half of them have not been in a single law enforcement faction on LSRP and even if that doesn't limit their knowledge, they probably don't care enough to see PD/SD side, they just cry. 

 

Seeing guns through is negotiable because cops can simply put lsrp's ip in the config and make sure guns aren't visible through the windows on lsrp anymore. It's something that can be avoided but people choose not to. Even when I told those cops who confessed they pulled me over because they saw guns through silentpatch.

 

> Also, let's not kid anybody, who really does character development of all the illegal roleplayers running around 4-deep

 

I assume you're a legal roleplayer because you obviously don't know how it goes as an illegal roleplayer. And if you're a illegal roleplayer, you'd know how much people emphasize on character development in bigger factions.

 

Out of all the traffic stops I've been at, and all the traffic stops that I've witnessed, all of them were traffic stops with atleast 6 cops with a /meg "Step out with your hands up:", I got pulled over multiple times and cops trying to arrest me because of "suspicious driving". People are just making up reasons as they go. Not recently you've had cops (who by the way is one of the ppl who is part of the cycle) banned for cheats and others being accused of it.

 

I know you want to defend your friends but don't say things you don't know and what others value. I'm sure some people play the victim card, but by far not everyone. The fact you're instantly saying that shows me you genuinely don't care.

[Michael_Dippolito]

Instead of granting legal factions the power to shut down factions as a whole, I would suggest leaning towards giving life sentences to certain characters involved in the most extreme crimes. Obviously, this would need to be backed with a sufficient amount of evidence, and I would even go as far as allowing an actual court trial to take place. Implementing this gives the opportunity for power shifts and tests the integrity of said faction to roleplay high profile arrests, and also gives them faction leaders a chance at controlling the faction from prison. 

 

In the past, giving LEOs the power to shut down factions promoted the toxic trait of shutting down factions just for shits and giggles. The factions that operated behind closed doors were often targetted more than factions that were performing hits in broad daylight and hosting drug and gun deals in public. The case files weren't even concrete enough to allow a faction to be taken down; an example being the D'Aquila Crime Family's profile. 80% of the case file was filled with nothing but surveillance photos of mobsters talking in public and barely any evidence confirming who held what rank other than twisted OOC narratives being intertwined IC. There weren't any wiretaps of anyone confirming who killed who, who ordered the hit on anyone. Not to mention the only substantial amount of evidence that they had was 2 years old and it was a recorded interview of two associates who were quitting the server and as a last "fuck you" to the faction they were in, they turned informant. You also had two cancers of the VICE Detective division; Ben Mason (who arrested someone from D'Aquila for calling him a "cocksucker" IC and charged them with sexual harassment) and Jamie LaVetta (who had a weird OOC obsession with shutting down factions who rarely made noise). There was also a wiretapped conversation between two soldiers who were in the middle of furnishing an interior that was bugged and one of them mentioned something along the lines of guns being bought, but it was obvious they weren't using the /b command to differentiate from the IC speech and yet the FM at the time still granted it as solid evidence of a gun deal, despite the dialogue being all lowercased and clearly just an OOC conversation between one another.

 

There's a whole lot that could go wrong with granting LEOs that sort of power. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Assilimwen]

10 minutes ago, DDaniels said:

 

Seeing guns through is negotiable because cops can simply put lsrp's ip in the config and make sure guns aren't visible through the windows on lsrp anymore. It's something that can be avoided but people choose not to. Even when I told those cops who confessed they pulled me over because they saw guns through silentpatch.

 

> Also, let's not kid anybody, who really does character development of all the illegal roleplayers running around 4-deep

 

I assume you're a legal roleplayer because you obviously don't know how it goes as an illegal roleplayer. And if you're a illegal roleplayer, you'd know how much people emphasize on character development in bigger factions.

 

Out of all the traffic stops I've been at, and all the traffic stops that I've witnessed, all of them were traffic stops with atleast 6 cops with a /meg "Step out with your hands up:", I got pulled over multiple times and cops trying to arrest me because of "suspicious driving". People are just making up reasons as they go. Not recently you've had cops (who by the way is one of the ppl who is part of the cycle) banned for cheats and others being accused of it.

 

I know you want to defend your friends but don't say things you don't know and what others value. I'm sure some people play the victim card, but by far not everyone. The fact you're instantly saying that shows me you genuinely don't care.

First of all, if SilentPatch is allowed, then it's allowed. Take it up with Server Management if you don't like it, but don't try to paint LEO RPers who simply happen to use it as evil P2W merchants who only care about fucking over as many illegal RPers roleplay as possible.

 

I can't really comment on your second point because I haven't had much interaction with criminals lately besides being mowed down for the pettiest reasons.

 

It's clear you lack the law enforcement knowledge needed to obtain a full and level understanding of LEO vs Illegal relations. First of all, what you're describing is a felony stop, and that occurs when a vehicle and/or it's subjects, who have been pulled over, are for a plethora of reasons, which I won't list right now are to be placed under arrest. These felony stops aren't pulled out of PD/SD's ass, no they aren't OP or P2W, yes they are necesarry in certain scenarios, yes it's been practiced forever, yes it happens IRL more than you think. Also, let's take one bad apple from PD/SD like usual and stick them out like the sore thumb that they are and then pull the victim card "Oh one officer/deputy did this, now I want immunity from all of the consequences I could possibly face roleplaying a criminal." But I can sympathize with you considering illegal roleplay is mostly about running away from consequences, so you must've adopted the mentality OOCly aswell. 😊 If you, however experience or simply witness a LEO RPer breaching any server rules or departmental regulations, nobody is stopping you from filing a complaint on the officer/deputy's respective forums (PD: police.lsgov.us, SD: sheriff.lsgov.us) or taking it up with an admin if necesarry! 

 

No I don't want to defend my friends, I simply want to shed light on the illegal roleplayers like you, who always get a sudden case of yappatito bullshididis when they are about to be held accountable for something and begin spewing out the dumbest arguments to defend their case.

[Assilimwen]

20 minutes ago, Michael_Dippolito said:

Instead of granting legal factions the power to shut down factions as a whole, I would suggest leaning towards giving life sentences to certain characters involved in the most extreme crimes. Obviously, this would need to be backed with a sufficient amount of evidence, and I would even go as far as allowing an actual court trial to take place. Implementing this gives the opportunity for power shifts and tests the integrity of said faction to roleplay high profile arrests, and also gives them faction leaders a chance at controlling the faction from prison. 

 

In the past, giving LEOs the power to shut down factions promoted the toxic trait of shutting down factions just for shits and giggles. The factions that operated behind closed doors were often targetted more than factions that were performing hits in broad daylight and hosting drug and gun deals in public. The case files weren't even concrete enough to allow a faction to be taken down; an example being the D'Aquila Crime Family's profile. 80% of the case file was filled with nothing but surveillance photos of mobsters talking in public and barely any evidence confirming who held what rank other than twisted OOC narratives being intertwined IC. There weren't any wiretaps of anyone confirming who killed who, who ordered the hit on anyone. Not to mention the only substantial amount of evidence that they had was 2 years old and it was a recorded interview of two associates who were quitting the server and as a last "fuck you" to the faction they were in, they turned informant. You also had two cancers of the VICE Detective division; Ben Mason (who arrested someone from D'Aquila for calling him a "cocksucker" IC and charged them with sexual harassment) and Jamie LaVetta (who had a weird OOC obsession with shutting down factions who rarely made noise). There was also a wiretapped conversation between two soldiers who were in the middle of furnishing an interior that was bugged and one of them mentioned something along the lines of guns being bought, but it was obvious they weren't using the /b command to differentiate from the IC speech and yet the FM at the time still granted it as solid evidence of a gun deal, despite the dialogue being all lowercased and clearly just an OOC conversation between one another.

 

There's a whole lot that could go wrong with granting LEOs that sort of power. 

 

 

 

 

 

From when until when was the D'Aquila Crime Family an active faction?

[Michael_Dippolito]

Just now, Assilimwen said:

From when until when was the D'Aquila Crime Family an active faction?

 

D'Aquila CF was a faction from 2013-2015. My example stems from that time period where LEO factions were given the power to shut down factions, which was brought up again here. 

[Marco Polo]

4 minutes ago, Assilimwen said:

Sweaty HZRP player on a burner account, do not engage. 

 

[Assilimwen]

1 minute ago, Michael_Dippolito said:

 

D'Aquila CF was a faction from 2013-2015. My example stems from that time period where LEO factions were given the power to shut down factions, which was brought up again here. 

Yeah, 2013 was 11 years ago and 2015 was 9, soon to be a whole decade ago. All law enforcement organizations have undergone YEARS of reforms since then, notably since 2018-19.

[Assilimwen]

3 minutes ago, Marco Polo said:

 

What are you talking about 😭

[Browman1945]

Last time I played on the server, I just walked infront of Vinewood SD station, and they wanted to terry frisk me because of the "officer safety", bro that's not a reason to terry frisk someone. Why would I surrender to officer who drove like a jackass and I thought they were some robbers. The next thing happened I killed the officer, and I got killed by the other officer. Some of LEO are hungry for DM, and got tht P2W mentality.

 

Note: Don't bother me with you advice to fill report against them.

Edited December 23, 2024 by Browman1945

[Grover The Good]

1 hour ago, DDaniels said:

 

While I do agree with you, with the current state of PD and SD I would rather not see something like this implemented. I've never in my life witnessed such a play2win, metagaming group of people. Of course there's a bunch of good ones aswell, but there's a whole squad of bad apples ruining it for the rest. There's cops who are using nametags, who are using the samp addon thingy that lets you see guns through windows and cops that pull people over because there might be a chance that they're armed, just to provoke a shootout. I've had to witness this multiple times and everytime I've had to get an admin to come and fix it, with them ruling in our favour each and every single time. There's also situations where the admins don't arrive.

 

Back in the days I used to be very surprised if people shot cops to avoid a prison sentence, because shit like this wouldn't happen. But now I can see why it's a decision people make: no one wants to ruin their character development and serve time in prison because certain people had to ruin it.

 

Giving these people the power to close down factions is going to make it even worse.

 

Don't worry, you can grant them all the powers you want as there's no way the factions currently known as LSPD and LSSD would ever be able to close down a faction because they couldn't organize an investigation and roleplay around it if their lives depended on it, for the simple reason that they're not the LSPD and the LSSD anymore. Sure they have the name and the graphics, but there's almost zero interest in character development, long-term storylines, carefully crafted scenarios or anything that resembles roleplay, as both factions have more or less been taken hostage by a pool of players for whom the law enforcement script is an easy way to get free weapons and armors to go around and "pack" people.

 

And that's when they don't victimize their own factions by using their alts to mow down waves of the few good members who naively attempt to interact with them. In what surely is a coincidence, anyone who suspects these players, catches wind of their exploits or attempts to stop them is promptly met with a removal from the faction they're in or forced to resign after being put in a position where they're unable to actually change things.

 

Meanwhile @Mmartin, @badhbh and @izumi, nominal members of LFM, are either sleeping, legally blind or willfully complicit in the downfall of two factions that, though not always great, have nonetheless provided countless interesting encounters and a much needed balance to the criminal scene. The law enforcement part of the server went from the handcrafted investigations of the Westbrook times to a bunch of glorified DM teams that occasionally use /me and /do, and they're going to sink further and drag the server down with them unless some people stop running cover for their friends and start taking the tough decisions they're supposed to take.

 

38 minutes ago, Michael_Dippolito said:

Instead of granting legal factions the power to shut down factions as a whole, I would suggest leaning towards giving life sentences to certain characters involved in the most extreme crimes. Obviously, this would need to be backed with a sufficient amount of evidence, and I would even go as far as allowing an actual court trial to take place. Implementing this gives the opportunity for power shifts and tests the integrity of said faction to roleplay high profile arrests, and also gives them faction leaders a chance at controlling the faction from prison. 

 

The old faction takedown system had some glaring issues that had to be fixed, but it still worked better than the free-for-all the server has now. Back when Ethanol was head of LFM, some tweaks and updates to the system were proposed: instead of factions "shutting down" and being put on a cooldown period before reopening they would merely lose official status and script privileges ("descripted") and continue operate as normal, with major players being offered the chance to go through an IC trial on selected charges (to prevent clogging the courts with jaywalking cases), those who weren't involved in the investigation being allowed to keep running the faction and anyone who roleplayed skipping town forfeiting their rights to a trial and being sought as a fugitive (to prevent people from going inactive for a few weeks and resume their spot in the faction immediately after). 

 

This proposal got some support from the illegal factions at the time, AP-13 in particular, but then, ironically enough, AP-13 got descripted and its leaders lost access to the FM section where the discussion was being held, the FM at the time either resigned or was couped and everything went down the drain real fast as their successors didn't have much interest in changing things as they had in preserving the status quo.

 

38 minutes ago, Michael_Dippolito said:

In the past, giving LEOs the power to shut down factions promoted the toxic trait of shutting down factions just for shits and giggles. The factions that operated behind closed doors were often targetted more than factions that were performing hits in broad daylight and hosting drug and gun deals in public. The case files weren't even concrete enough to allow a faction to be taken down; an example being the D'Aquila Crime Family's profile.

 

Official factions have always been the priority when it came to case files. Detectives have typically focused on factions that had a high-profile OOC, rather than IC, and treated the whole investigation as a giant, monolithic entity instead of pursuing single crimes (murders, smuggling, extortion, etc.) and use those to build a bigger and more robust case. This mentality being accepted, however, rarely fell to the single investigators and it was more of a systemic issue: on one hand, you had the faction leaderships who promoted a "results-at-all-costs" strategy, regardless of the methods or the actual roleplay involved (as seen in the detectives constantly taking surveillance pictures over actual confrontations); on the other, as you correctly point out in your post, it was a Faction Management that accepted pretty much anything at face value once the casefile became big enough (D'Aquila being an excellent example — it's a mystery how FM could accept that casefile). 

 

For the system to actually work well you need several components to work flawlessly together, including an illegal faction that's willing to play fair, law enforcement members who can prioritize IC threats over OOC glamour and an FM who's willing to put time and effort into reviewing the cases instead of just rubber stamping whatever LEOs bring to their table. But even in the case where the system doesn't work like clockwork, it'd still be an improvement over whatever's in place at the moment.

 

12 minutes ago, Assilimwen said:

Yeah, 2013 was 11 years ago and 2015 was 9, soon to be a whole decade ago. All law enforcement organizations have undergone YEARS of reforms since then, notably since 2018-19.

 

Correct. And roleplay-wise, they still manage to be worse than they were in 2013.
 

Edited December 23, 2024 by Grover The Good

[Assilimwen]

1 minute ago, Grover The Good said:

[...]

 

Correct. And roleplay-wise, they still manage to be worse than they were in 2013.

That's a huuuge overdramatization.