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Hey, I'm genuinely curious if courts are gonna be a thing on LSRP5. I remember that they used to be a thing on the SAMP-based LSRP, however was never really active or paid any attention to, due to the fact that they had very little say, and you were only able to contest charges after serving time for them (which was quite literally a counter-incentive to appealing them, and cops had a final say on whether you're gonna spend 10h in prison or not). My question is; will the criminal justice system be reworked here? I feel like implementing a system similiar to the one that currently works on GTAW would be a really neat addition to both legal and illegal roleplay. Also just to counter a couple points before they'll be brought up - I can  guarantee you that there will be several people interested in roleplaying judges, lawyers, and prosecutors if that's made possible. I feel like a system like this doesn't harm anybody (even if the court cases are "roleplayed" via forums in order to save some time), and only enhances the entire experience. 

Edited by i dont wanna od in LA
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I loathed the entire premise of "fighting" the charge being the burden of the accused. Having to contact IA, find a lawyer etc. I unfortunately don't have access to the guides I wrote but I did make it where in most cases you didn't need IA or a lawyer. But it wasn't really used. Hopefully it's established early on to have the ability to have both sides heard - it'll create more RP for LEOs and the accused. I think a huge barrier before was that cops just wanted the action. 

 

Idk what GTAW does, as I've never played there. But realistically you're going to spend some time in jail awaiting trial. 

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3 minutes ago, Fiendfyre said:

I loathed the entire premise of "fighting" the charge being the burden of the accused. Having to contact IA, find a lawyer etc.

I agree. This process made little to no sense, and sadly opened a huge field for abuse to PD/SD, where if you were arrested (for example falsely) upon player reporting them you were told it's an IC issue, yet there was no real way to address it via IC means so you had to more or less just afk your time out. 

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7 hours ago, Fiendfyre said:

I loathed the entire premise of "fighting" the charge being the burden of the accused. Having to contact IA, find a lawyer etc. I unfortunately don't have access to the guides I wrote but I did make it where in most cases you didn't need IA or a lawyer. But it wasn't really used. Hopefully it's established early on to have the ability to have both sides heard - it'll create more RP for LEOs and the accused. I think a huge barrier before was that cops just wanted the action. 

 

Idk what GTAW does, as I've never played there. But realistically you're going to spend some time in jail awaiting trial. 


I was the leader of the court faction on GTA:W for a long period of time, which consisted of the Judges themselves, the District Attorney’s office and the Public Defender’s office. Our court was divided into three branches: The Supreme Court, Appellate Court and Superior Court.

 

The Superior Court was the trial court, with three separate divisions, those being criminal, traffic and civil. When charged with any crime, players had the option of three pleas: Guilty, Not Guilty or No Contest. When pleading Not Guilty, players would be held until the conclusion of their trial unless bail was granted. If a player pleas No Contest they will serve their jail time as normal and be released when the timer is over, not being held and have 30 days to appeal their charges to the court if they do wish. 
 

Some charges such as Capital Murder (which is murder but a CK of a player) and some other charges would be considered a Required Case which the player was required to sit in jail until their trial finished. This also applied for players who met 30 criminal points, where the court could then decide whether the player should face life in prison or some other penalty.

 

Overall, this system has functioned very well on GTA:W and as a system averages nearly ~700 criminal cases a year, not counting players or companies suing eachother or law enforcement agencies or traffic cases.

 

Also, LEO factions were required to have arrest warrants approved for most crimes if someone was not arrested on scene, as well as search and electronic surveillance warrants. 
 

I feel like a system similar this would be very beneficial to both legal and illegal players of the server, creating roleplay for both sides and ensuring fairness to criminal parties by approving warrants, etc through a system of checks and balances by the court.

Edited by mattmocz
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Yes the courts will be a thing in V. Yes they will be active. As of right now I'm still in discussions with the Head of Legal Factions as to what role the courts will play whether in game, on the forums or a combination of both.

 

There has been an incredible of interest from people wanting to be judges, prosecutorial staff and lawyers.

 

You may continue to discuss and make suggestions in this forum and I'll see about bringing some change the community would like to see.

 

RyanW

Chief Justice

San Andreas Judiciary 

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2 hours ago, RyanW said:

Yes the courts will be a thing in V. Yes they will be active. As of right now I'm still in discussions with the Head of Legal Factions as to what role the courts will play whether in game, on the forums or a combination of both.

 

There has been an incredible of interest from people wanting to be judges, prosecutorial staff and lawyers.

 

You may continue to discuss and make suggestions in this forum and I'll see about bringing some change the community would like to see.

 

RyanW

Chief Justice

San Andreas Judiciary 

There were guides to the courts written by myself, Morales, and Kotwica that would work very well on the new server. A combo of IG and forum works best with time zones. 

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3 hours ago, mattmocz said:


I was the leader of the court faction on GTA:W for a long period of time, which consisted of the Judges themselves, the District Attorney’s office and the Public Defender’s office. Our court was divided into three branches: The Supreme Court, Appellate Court and Superior Court.

 

The Superior Court was the trial court, with three separate divisions, those being criminal, traffic and civil. When charged with any crime, players had the option of three pleas: Guilty, Not Guilty or No Contest. When pleading Not Guilty, players would be held until the conclusion of their trial unless bail was granted. If a player pleas No Contest they will serve their jail time as normal and be released when the timer is over, not being held and have 30 days to appeal their charges to the court if they do wish. 
 

Some charges such as Capital Murder (which is murder but a CK of a player) and some other charges would be considered a Required Case which the player was required to sit in jail until their trial finished. This also applied for players who met 30 criminal points, where the court could then decide whether the player should face life in prison or some other penalty.

 

Overall, this system has functioned very well on GTA:W and as a system averages nearly ~700 criminal cases a year, not counting players or companies suing eachother or law enforcement agencies or traffic cases.

 

Also, LEO factions were required to have arrest warrants approved for most crimes if someone was not arrested on scene, as well as search and electronic surveillance warrants. 
 

I feel like a system similar this would be very beneficial to both legal and illegal players of the server, creating roleplay for both sides and ensuring fairness to criminal parties by approving warrants, etc through a system of checks and balances by the court.

I don’t think someone cking should make a difference on an IC charge tbh. But I do agree that charges should increase if they’re shown as a repeat offender. 
 

I ran courts on LSRP SAMP for a while. Our biggest hurdle was lack of cooperation by LEO factions
 

we had warrants on SAMP - the only downside was that certain ranks on LEO factions could approve warrants. We did reach a point where I was able to reach an agreement to give judges a set amount of time to review them, and we had discord channel to ping for urgent requests (since realistically you could get ahold of a judge for urgent requests irl). Same for pinging for lawyers. 

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2 hours ago, Fiendfyre said:

I don’t think someone cking should make a difference on an IC charge tbh. But I do agree that charges should increase if they’re shown as a repeat offender. 
 

I ran courts on LSRP SAMP for a while. Our biggest hurdle was lack of cooperation by LEO factions
 

we had warrants on SAMP - the only downside was that certain ranks on LEO factions could approve warrants. We did reach a point where I was able to reach an agreement to give judges a set amount of time to review them, and we had discord channel to ping for urgent requests (since realistically you could get ahold of a judge for urgent requests irl). Same for pinging for lawyers. 

 

I've seen warrants work on GTA:W for a long time with no one being able to approve them besides Judges. The thing that needs to be said that is that LEO roleplayers need to adapt  from having the power to do everything without any checks and balances and learn to cooperate with others. The era of LEOs needing to be judge, jury and executioner is an archaic mentality that should be ended. It's not that hard to write a short narrative and provide a little evidence as to why they need the warrant approved. The standard for warrants is probable cause and that isn't a very hard burden of proof to meet. Hopefully in LSRP:V the Courts will not meet the same brick wall as it sounds like you had hit in the past.

Edited by mattmocz
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I agree with Matt here. As I have been part of the judicial scene of GTA W for long enough, there weren't any major issues with the warrant system. It's especially important when it comes to large scale operations. Having judge approve warrants, would be another filter to avoid metagaming. I'm sure it would reduce situations where after raid, heated argument arises whether it was based on OOC information. Obviously it would not be complete guarantee but it would help without a doubt. Also, I'm positive that there is enough interest in the judiciary to provide server with enough judges so there would not be excessive waiting period on the warrants.

 

I understand that this is a game and we should not go too deep into the complex reality of legal system and overdevelop bureaucracy but having some kind of separation of powers would do server good. Tying hands of law enforcement agencies to some extent, will enhance the quality and thoroughness. Plus the OOC aspect I mentioned before. 

 

Fiendfyre mentioned that issue before was lack of cooperation by LEO factions. That's why I think it is important to have properly functioning legal system ready once the server opens. It is much more complicated integrating such affecting addition once LEOs have already gotten used to the system without courts. 

 

Obviously LSRP should not aim to be duplication of GTA W but after all legal system is universal and GTA W based theirs on it. So I hope staff of LSRP are willing to apply that same universal foundation and adjust it to avoid stepping on the same rake as GTA W did in some of the aspects.

Edited by eminence grise
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The entire process blows because there's no bail system or public defenders. It takes longer to find a lawyer, suppress "evidence" which has no chain of custody or legitimacy other than being a screenshot or text document, than just serving your jail time and moving on. A day one public defender could dismiss 70% of all cases by the LSPD due to case law and other things which are never utilized.

 

Warrants are a misunderstood concept. Due to most of the player base not being from the U.S. they don't understand the 4th Amendment and just want to look cool in their tactical SWAT vests running through houses.

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52 minutes ago, Florida said:

The entire process blows because there's no bail system or public defenders. It takes longer to find a lawyer, suppress "evidence" which has no chain of custody or legitimacy other than being a screenshot or text document, than just serving your jail time and moving on. A day one public defender could dismiss 70% of all cases by the LSPD due to case law and other things which are never utilized.

 

Warrants are a misunderstood concept. Due to most of the player base not being from the U.S. they don't understand the 4th Amendment and just want to look cool in their tactical SWAT vests running through houses.

 

Both bail system and public defender aspects are enforceable but I wouldn't go into detail right now. I'm not sure what you meant regarding cases being dismissable due to case law. If it's about lack of state level precedents, it would need some adjusting, yes. However I don't think it is a major issue and it is quite easily fixable. Also, most landmark decisions come from US Supreme Court and they are directly applicable. They form strong enough base for satisfactory defense but State precedents would be additional improvement.

 

For educational purpose and to avoid misunderstandings that outside of the US there is anarchy, 4th Amendment is simply an expression of right to privacy and home immunity which are universal principles. It is enforced in every modern democratic country with the rule of law.

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8 hours ago, RyanW said:

Yes the courts will be a thing in V. Yes they will be active. As of right now I'm still in discussions with the Head of Legal Factions as to what role the courts will play whether in game, on the forums or a combination of both.

 

There has been an incredible of interest from people wanting to be judges, prosecutorial staff and lawyers.

 

You may continue to discuss and make suggestions in this forum and I'll see about bringing some change the community would like to see.

 

RyanW

Chief Justice

San Andreas Judiciary 

Is there any form of recruitment going on right now? 

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6 hours ago, Florida said:

Warrants are a misunderstood concept. Due to most of the player base not being from the U.S. they don't understand the 4th Amendment and just want to look cool in their tactical SWAT vests running through houses.

 

You seem to have a very false perception of our law enforcement factions. What was the last time you've been on LS-RP and you witnessed our faction breaching the 4th Amendment? I am very interested in hearing specifics. 

 

All our supervisors in LSPD have to go through an examination based on case law and policy that is considered "too much for a video game". Not even half of our faction members who take this exam pass it, excluding the amount of tries some people take to pass it.

 

It's not that deep. You don't need to be an American to understand the law to a very detailed extent to function as a law enforcement officer in-character. As long as the penal code (which I'm sure it will be) is written by people with clear understanding of how the law works in the US there won’t be any issues. Also, I am hopeful that the SA Judiciary is clear which case law is applicable and which isn't.

 

Warrants aren't a misunderstood concept in our factions, not sure where you are getting that from.

 

The standard in regards to warrant approvals and throwing out cases is going to be handled by judges, who will hopefully be competent. If law enforcement factions do a bad job with cases in-character, then they should be thrown out by the system.
 

7 hours ago, mattmocz said:

The era of LEOs needing to be judge, jury and executioner is an archaic mentality that should be ended.

 

We won't be approving our own warrants, that has been removed (a long time ago) given the upcoming changes in SA Judiciary and we are excited to see what comes out of it, for clarity.

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I think the biggest thing that needs to be ensured is to have as little involvement from staff as possible, except to ensure the smooth running of the factions or unrealistic laws aren't passed. I would say the biggest challenge that many communities face is the balance of power aspect. A faction leader of the Police Department for example shouldn't be immune and should answer to someone.  Setting those pathways should be done carefully and I'd love to see more emphasis on pushing the player-ran aspect and less focus on management being involved in various aspects.  

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11 minutes ago, Flemwad said:

I think the biggest thing that needs to be ensured is to have as little involvement from staff as possible, except to ensure the smooth running of the factions or unrealistic laws aren't passed. I would say the biggest challenge that many communities face is the balance of power aspect. A faction leader of the Police Department for example shouldn't be immune and should answer to someone.  Setting those pathways should be done carefully and I'd love to see more emphasis on pushing the player-ran aspect and less focus on management being involved in various aspects.  

Management didn't really have much involvement in courts on the previous server.  But I do agree that  the legal faction leaders should not be exempt from answering to someone in character as the previously were. 

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On 1/6/2022 at 7:36 AM, Benavides said:

The standard in regards to warrant approvals and throwing out cases is going to be handled by judges, who will hopefully be competent. If law enforcement factions do a bad job with cases in-character, then they should be thrown out by the system.

 

Should be handled by the State prosecutors. If your case is weak and has no validity it should get no billed and dropped by the state before it ever sees a court room. That's why I brought up bail and other systems.

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It'll be a great idea to bring this courts thing idea alive. It'll carry on with more roleplay before an arrest is made, and like Florida mention above: Should be really handled by the state's prosecutors. I hope that there'll be players to roleplay it on this one so it'll be a way more realistic enviroment for everyone. 

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Absolutely sharing the same thought about this one. It's necessary to ensure effective protection of citizens from any sort of discrimination. Either way, it would drastically improve the civilian - government relations and on the final cause, add more good roleplay into it.

On 1/6/2022 at 9:32 AM, eminence grise said:

I agree with Matt here. As I have been part of the judicial scene of GTA W for long enough, there weren't any major issues with the warrant system. It's especially important when it comes to large scale operations. Having judge approve warrants, would be another filter to avoid metagaming. I'm sure it would reduce situations where after raid, heated argument arises whether it was based on OOC information. Obviously it would not be complete guarantee but it would help without a doubt. Also, I'm positive that there is enough interest in the judiciary to provide server with enough judges so there would not be excessive waiting period on the warrants.

 

I understand that this is a game and we should not go too deep into the complex reality of legal system and overdevelop bureaucracy but having some kind of separation of powers would do server good. Tying hands of law enforcement agencies to some extent, will enhance the quality and thoroughness. Plus the OOC aspect I mentioned before. 

 

This is a great summary to this thing. But all in all, I support your suggestion.

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The prospect of a revamped court system on LSRP5 sounds intriguing. Bringing in a system akin to GTAW could enhance both legal and illegal roleplay. I'm sure many players, myseThe prospect of a revamped court system on LSRP5 sounds intriguing. Bringing in a system akin to GTAW could enhance both legal and illegal roleplay. I'm sure many players, myself included, would be keen on exploring roles like judges, lawyers, and prosecutors. Speaking of lawyers, can you guys advise on any for my whistleblower case? I just checked out https://federal-lawyer.com/whistleblower-lawyers/irs-tax/. Did anybody work with them? I will be grateful for the advice! lf included, would be keen on exploring roles like judges, lawyers, and prosecutors.

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